4 ms·

The not-reading part is seriously starting to sound like lamenting the death of the epos. Yeah, there is a real loss of an art form there but also most books ar

by blfr 10d ago

The not-reading part is seriously starting to sound like lamenting the death of the epos. Yeah, there is a real loss of an art form there but also most books are padded to death and should have been articles at most, maybe even tweets. The reason we read less long form prose is because we have more information-dense, relevant, and personalized forms of communication and knowledge transfer available to us. If you take a book from world top 100 and compare it to average youtube feed, you will be horrified. But it's not like people in the recent past were primarily reading Conrad and contemplating physical isolation's impact on social norms.

bdangubic 10d ago
> The reason we read less long form prose is because we have more information-dense, relevant, and personalized forms of communication and knowledge transfer available to us All would be well with the World if this was actually true…
aerhardt 10d ago
One of the reasons why we read less long-form, according to a bunch of cognitive science studies and to my own anecdotal experience, is because our attention is shot. A viral article in The Atlantic [1] shows evidence and testimony that kids at elite universities simply can't read anymore. I've seen the claim repeated in many other places and looking around me I believe it. Those kids are not replacing Dostoevsky or Aristotle with more compact versions of it. The airport book industry is indeed full of books that could be fit in ten pages. But there's a universe of useful - potentially life-changing - books beyond that, and not only in the humanities. Some modern technical books justify their length. I seriously doubt that something like The Data Warehouse Toolkit can be replaced by reading piecemeal blogposts online. Same goes for history, I sincerely doubt you can properly learn it in depth without reading long-form. In my experience, people who only listen to history podcasts or consume 10-minute videos tend to have a much poorer command of the facts and of the broader motions of history. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-elite-college-students-who-cant-read-books/679945/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-eli...
- watwut 10d ago
  Viral article from atlantic proves exactly nothing. And claim that students cant read is, frankly, idiotic.
  - aerhardt 10d ago
    Is this your idea of an intelligent contribution to the conversation? There is plenty of evidence in the article from real professors at real universities (ex: Princeton), saying that they’ve had to dramatically cut reading workloads from humanities courses. I’ve heard similar things from European universities. Other hard evidence is in plummeting reading comprehension scores in many countries that participate in PISA. In the States, there is plenty of other stats that point that students are below their expected reading grade - the worse in generations. And all you have to contribute is that this is “idiotic”? The irony. Inform yourself.
    - watwut 10d ago
      Above all, NONE of that excuses the claim that "that kids at elite universities simply can't read anymore". That one is simply, factually not true. There is such a thing as not being able to read. Students at elite universities, who btw are not kids, dont fit there. Second, yes, and mostly because I did actually read those stats and details of how they are made. All the nuance from the actual scientific article gets exaggerated into completely different claims just to create outrage and perpetuate it again and again. Usually by people who do not know what PISA or reading grades measure. Reading comprehension as measured by PISA have zero to do with long form reading of books including classics. It is not trained by reading those nor measure reading those. The short for articles full of graphs, scientific claims and such the Atlantic complains about is how you train people for PISA. I am not criticizing PISA here btw. It is ok to measure that. > In the States, there is plenty of other stats that point that students are below their expected reading grade - the worse in generations. Interestingly, those who made this claim usually do not know how reading grades are measured or even how high they go. "The worse in generations" claim is especially dubious and tend to based on comparison between "guess performance of imaginary past elite student in undefined historical period" with low performing student today. Low performing students 3-4 generations ago disappear, because we imagine them to not exist. There is outrage every time a school replaces one book by another. Or when a course that has no reason to assign full Odyssey assigns range of materials with one chapter from it. There is outrage when student names a contemporary book as the favorite one instead of a classic.
fauxclore 10d ago
This take made me reel back, and shows a disregard for what longform content can do that shorts and tweets can't. Maybe you have only been reading the wrong books.
- CrimsonRain 10d ago
  Op didn't say longform is worse than shorts. I'm sure the opposite. The issue is padding. Most longform are padded to death. That's the issue. 30 years ago, that was the only option to read from. So people did it. Now people are not at mercy of these intellectual longform masturbators.
flufluflufluffy 10d ago
Why did you use so many words? You could’ve made the same point with at most half the amount of sentences.
- blfr 10d ago
  I didn't have time to write a shorter comment.

by blfr 10d ago

bdangubic 10d ago

> The reason we read less long form prose is because we have more information-dense, relevant, and personalized forms of communication and knowledge transfer available to us All would be well with the World if this was actually true…

aerhardt 10d ago

One of the reasons why we read less long-form, according to a bunch of cognitive science studies and to my own anecdotal experience, is because our attention is shot. A viral article in The Atlantic [1] shows evidence and testimony that kids at elite universities simply can't read anymore. I've seen the claim repeated in many other places and looking around me I believe it. Those kids are not replacing Dostoevsky or Aristotle with more compact versions of it. The airport book industry is indeed full of books that could be fit in ten pages. But there's a universe of useful - potentially life-changing - books beyond that, and not only in the humanities. Some modern technical books justify their length. I seriously doubt that something like The Data Warehouse Toolkit can be replaced by reading piecemeal blogposts online. Same goes for history, I sincerely doubt you can properly learn it in depth without reading long-form. In my experience, people who only listen to history podcasts or consume 10-minute videos tend to have a much poorer command of the facts and of the broader motions of history. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-elite-college-students-who-cant-read-books/679945/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/11/the-eli...

watwut 10d ago
Viral article from atlantic proves exactly nothing. And claim that students cant read is, frankly, idiotic.
- aerhardt 10d ago
  Is this your idea of an intelligent contribution to the conversation? There is plenty of evidence in the article from real professors at real universities (ex: Princeton), saying that they’ve had to dramatically cut reading workloads from humanities courses. I’ve heard similar things from European universities. Other hard evidence is in plummeting reading comprehension scores in many countries that participate in PISA. In the States, there is plenty of other stats that point that students are below their expected reading grade - the worse in generations. And all you have to contribute is that this is “idiotic”? The irony. Inform yourself.
  - watwut 10d ago
    Above all, NONE of that excuses the claim that "that kids at elite universities simply can't read anymore". That one is simply, factually not true. There is such a thing as not being able to read. Students at elite universities, who btw are not kids, dont fit there. Second, yes, and mostly because I did actually read those stats and details of how they are made. All the nuance from the actual scientific article gets exaggerated into completely different claims just to create outrage and perpetuate it again and again. Usually by people who do not know what PISA or reading grades measure. Reading comprehension as measured by PISA have zero to do with long form reading of books including classics. It is not trained by reading those nor measure reading those. The short for articles full of graphs, scientific claims and such the Atlantic complains about is how you train people for PISA. I am not criticizing PISA here btw. It is ok to measure that. > In the States, there is plenty of other stats that point that students are below their expected reading grade - the worse in generations. Interestingly, those who made this claim usually do not know how reading grades are measured or even how high they go. "The worse in generations" claim is especially dubious and tend to based on comparison between "guess performance of imaginary past elite student in undefined historical period" with low performing student today. Low performing students 3-4 generations ago disappear, because we imagine them to not exist. There is outrage every time a school replaces one book by another. Or when a course that has no reason to assign full Odyssey assigns range of materials with one chapter from it. There is outrage when student names a contemporary book as the favorite one instead of a classic.

fauxclore 10d ago

This take made me reel back, and shows a disregard for what longform content can do that shorts and tweets can't. Maybe you have only been reading the wrong books.

CrimsonRain 10d ago
Op didn't say longform is worse than shorts. I'm sure the opposite. The issue is padding. Most longform are padded to death. That's the issue. 30 years ago, that was the only option to read from. So people did it. Now people are not at mercy of these intellectual longform masturbators.

flufluflufluffy 10d ago

Why did you use so many words? You could’ve made the same point with at most half the amount of sentences.

blfr 10d ago
I didn't have time to write a shorter comment.