6 ms·

Terpstra Keyboard

151 points by cl3misch 12d ago

Zambyte 11d ago
I found this ubder the Play it now! page. Funny name collision with the Scala programming language :) https://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/ https://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/
coldpie 11d ago
For folks wondering wtf is going on with the key layout, this is what's called an isomorphic ("same shape") layout. The idea is you can learn how to play a certain grouping of notes relative to each other, and then you can play that same grouping anywhere on the keyboard relative to some other note. So for example a C major triad is the notes C-E-G played together. And a D major triad is the notes D-F#-A played together. If you learn the major triad shape on this keyboard, then you can move to the note C and play that shape and get a C major triad, or move to the note D and play that exact same shape and get a D major triad. This is different from a linear layout like a traditional piano. Note above that the D major triad has an F# which means it is played on one of the piano's black keys, while the C major triad does not have a sharp, which means it is played entirely on the white keys. You have to keep track of which particular chord you are playing in order to know whether you need a black key or a white key. This means the shape you play to get each major triad is different, so a traditional piano is not an isomorphic ("same shape") layout. Guitars are also isomorphic (when all the strings being played are fretted) and may be easier to think about. If you imagine fretting the lowest two strings at the 5th fret and playing them both, and then moving your finger up one fret on both strings, the interval between each of those two groupings of notes is the same - you've moved them each up one step, but the difference between them stays the same based on however the strings are tuned. Similar to this keyboard, on a guitar you can learn the shape of a (fully fretted) major triad, and then move that shape anywhere on the neck to play any major triad. Accordion bass buttons work the same way. Looks confusing if you don't have any idea what's going on, but it's actually very intuitive and easy to learn and play.
- jrflo 11d ago
  That's really cool, I would definitely be interested in a "normal" keyboard that had this kind of layout as a guitar player. Needing to remember different hand shapes to play a major chords took a long time to get used to - would love to be able to just "slide up" the shape like you do on guitar with bar chords.
  - iAMkenough 11d ago
    The House of the Rising Sun test of the commercial version of this keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlZv13YZzSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlZv13YZzSM
  - coldpie 11d ago
    I'm also primarily a guitar player. I picked up a piano accordion earlier this year, and I'm wondering if I should've gotten a button accordion instead[1]. A linear piano layout is just hard to wrap my head around, hahah. I guess it's probably good to learn, though, so I'll stick with it. [1] Piano accordion on top, button accordion with isomorphic layout on bottom: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_converter_free-bass_piano-accordion_and_a_Russian_bayan.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_converter_free-bas...
- dsego 11d ago
  Not only the bass buttons, there is a type of chromatic button accordion, popular in eastern europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Z4iPyFmAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Z4iPyFmAE
  - gpvos 11d ago
    And then there are diatonic accordions, which all use a similar layout both for the bass and melody sides (but you can't play in all keys[0] on them, that's the difference between chromatic and diatonic). While they are simpler than chromatic accordions, they are now usually more expensive because fewer people play them. [0] that is, ~"scales"; usually all buttons will be working
  - 11d ago
pluc 11d ago
Been a while since I've seen an HTTP-only website
triclops200 11d ago
I play the lumatone (https://www.lumatone.io/ https://www.lumatone.io/) which is very similar. I personally love it, especially as I like to do a lot of improv in various tunings, and the layout makes transposing and thinking about structure so much easier than a traditional keyboard. The terpstra seems similar, not sure what their selling point is over the lumatone. Edit: oh, it seems that the lumatone is the commercialized version essentially. Great hardware, can reccomend!
- nh2 11d ago
  > oh, it seems that the lumatone is the commercialized version essentially From the same makers or others? On the website I can find no info whether this project is concluded or not.
- gcanyon 11d ago
  Any idea why something like this costs $5,000? It seems like manufacturing costs would justify 1/10th of that maybe? Disclaimer: I'm not a hardware manufacturer nor retailer, I'm just going off what regular typing keyboards go for.
  - fxwin 11d ago
    > I'm just going off what regular typing keyboards go for. Are there any regular typing keyboards with velocity sensitive keys? I genuinely don't know, it's just the first thing I'd compare this to
    - gcanyon 11d ago
      Yeah, velocity definitely jumped out at me as a difference, but it seems(?) like being velocity-sensitive could 2x the cost, maybe even 3x, but not 10x ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm absolutely not calling it over-priced, just puzzled.
      - ianthehenry 11d ago
        Well the only moving part in a typing keyboards is a mass-produced switch that you slot into a PCB. There are mass-produced hall effect switches that can provide velocity sensitivity, but it's a pretty distant comparison. The keys on a lumatone aren't anything like buttons; they're weighted mechanical arms with significant travel -- much more like a piano key than a keyboard key. And it has 280 of these! The degree of mechanical hardware in this thing makes it seem not really comparable to a PCB with some switches slotted into it. That said! There are people making DIY isomorphic keyboards using hall-effect keyboard switches. None are commercially available right now, but see e.g. the MidiHex at https://gullsonix.co.uk/ https://gullsonix.co.uk/. You could make one for a fraction of the cost of a lumatone -- but of course it would be a very different instrument.
ttoinou 11d ago
French music researcher and youtuber “Mathémusiques” also has a weird experiment with 2D graphs for music notes Here a simulation https://thetonnetz.com/ https://thetonnetz.com/
QuantumAtom 11d ago
I don't know why, but I'm thinking songs to Moog to.
einpoklum 11d ago
This looks like the Go of keyboards. If I hit the keys encircling a group of other keys maybe I can flip their color 8-|
- Tistron 11d ago
  You're mixing up Go and Othello :)
thih9 11d ago
https://polyend.com/keys/ https://polyend.com/keys/ A recent product concept, computer keyboard with function keys arranged like piano keys. Also intersects music, technology and keyboard layout, but from a different angle.
- mehackernewsacc 11d ago
  Just be aware that Polyend's modus operandi is to constantly churn out new hardware and not properly support and fix bugs in the software of things already released. Always on to the next thing.
hnd9q09qk4 11d ago
[dead]
dsego 11d ago
Reminds me of the chromatic button accordion.
833dong 11d ago
[flagged]
hasanpiker 11d ago
[dead]
throwaway2037 11d ago
HTTP insecure in 2026. Wild!
N19PEDL2 11d ago
Why is it redirecting to the website of a Romanian IT company? Edit: it seems it's doing so on Firefox, but not on Edge.
altairprime 11d ago
For those just now encountering isomorphic keyboards, my experience with them is purely in software on a tablet, courtesy of a pair of extremely tangential links that I encountered a while back. While esoteric, they're what have made me wish that I was wealthy enough to get a physical isomorphic panel for a hobby — but as a non-pro and student, it's not yet time, so software it is. There are various websites and apps that implement them — either isomorphic or microtonal + either keyboard or midi should locate them for whatever platform is of interest. And then, for two things completely tangential: Physicists may particularly appreciate that someone made a distorted isomorphic keyboard layout that implements 5-limit just intervals and it ends up being a quasicrystal. While not a true isomorphic, it certainly draws connections that I don't otherwise get to talk about on HN much, and if one were to take the 7-JI 3-D quasicrystal and combine it with a webcam theremin, I'm sure the results would be entertaining. https://old.reddit.com/r/microtonal/comments/1l1m0e6/quasiisomorphic_keyboards_and_octave_reduction_in/ https://old.reddit.com/r/microtonal/comments/1l1m0e6/quasiis... Caftaphata is one woman's ten year project to create a conlang ('constructed language') that converts human mandibular positions into 5-D chords and builds a tetris-block language of phonetic rules out of them. There are maybe twenty videos posted so far presenting each stage of the grammar and construction patterns. Each chord is a word constructed by plain rules. Studying these videos since they launched a year ago is what led me to learn about isomorphic keyboards. The accompanying instructional videos also have the distinction of being narrated fully in Lisatopian (the creator's first conlang), so not only sound but also subtitles end up being required. This is the Caftaphata intro video; 5 minutes, sound is mandatory and may feel dissonant at times: https://youtu.be/cMnuMjXeHrY https://youtu.be/cMnuMjXeHrY
jzb 11d ago
Finally, a keyboard that’s perfect for Emacs.
HelloUsername 11d ago
Last year discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44308558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44308558
Fnoord 11d ago
HTTP;DR If you got a product to demonstrate, have the dignity to use HTTPS. With a remotely exploitable vulnerability in Google Chrome V8 in the wild, all the more reason to. Even though I am using Mozilla Firefox, there's probably some Chromium-based software I use.
- leni536 11d ago
  I don't see how https is relevant for browser JS vulnerabilities.
  - speedgoose 11d ago
    Man in the middle attacks are much easier.
Blackthorn 11d ago
I have a Lumatone and I do like it, but I think the benefits of isomorphism are somewhat oversold. It does let you think in intervals, but on the other hand thinking in steps becomes harder.
- xhevahir 11d ago
  When i play my Axis-49 keyboard i find that i don't know how to do voice leading. I guess it's kind of like a guitar in that respect too.
sharkjacobs 11d ago
I really expected this to be something from Brett Terpstra https://brettterpstra.com/topic/keyboard/ https://brettterpstra.com/topic/keyboard/
encomiast 11d ago
The video makes claims about how much easier it is to learn to play with this keyboard layout vs, the traditional piano layout. But learning the chords has never been the difficult part of playing the piano. Learning arpeggios, scales, repertoire, all while being relaxed and expressive is the hard part. I wonder if this makes any of that easier? It seems like this can get you from zero to the equivalent of picking up a few chords and how to strum on guitar fairly quickly. But I would be curious what mastery of this instrument looks like? If you were the Oscar Peterson or Franz Liszt of this thing, how would the layout limit or enable you?
Ozzie-D 11d ago
[flagged]
signa11 11d ago
this gives me serious art-lebedev keyboard vibes. anyone here remember those ?
jpease 11d ago
Seems like a Novation Launchpad (or similar) checks a lot of the same boxes, for a fraction of the cost and desk space.

151 points by cl3misch 12d ago

I found this ubder the Play it now! page. Funny name collision with the Scala programming language :) https://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/ https://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

coldpie 11d ago

For folks wondering wtf is going on with the key layout, this is what's called an isomorphic ("same shape") layout. The idea is you can learn how to play a certain grouping of notes relative to each other, and then you can play that same grouping anywhere on the keyboard relative to some other note. So for example a C major triad is the notes C-E-G played together. And a D major triad is the notes D-F#-A played together. If you learn the major triad shape on this keyboard, then you can move to the note C and play that shape and get a C major triad, or move to the note D and play that exact same shape and get a D major triad. This is different from a linear layout like a traditional piano. Note above that the D major triad has an F# which means it is played on one of the piano's black keys, while the C major triad does not have a sharp, which means it is played entirely on the white keys. You have to keep track of which particular chord you are playing in order to know whether you need a black key or a white key. This means the shape you play to get each major triad is different, so a traditional piano is not an isomorphic ("same shape") layout. Guitars are also isomorphic (when all the strings being played are fretted) and may be easier to think about. If you imagine fretting the lowest two strings at the 5th fret and playing them both, and then moving your finger up one fret on both strings, the interval between each of those two groupings of notes is the same - you've moved them each up one step, but the difference between them stays the same based on however the strings are tuned. Similar to this keyboard, on a guitar you can learn the shape of a (fully fretted) major triad, and then move that shape anywhere on the neck to play any major triad. Accordion bass buttons work the same way. Looks confusing if you don't have any idea what's going on, but it's actually very intuitive and easy to learn and play.

jrflo 11d ago
That's really cool, I would definitely be interested in a "normal" keyboard that had this kind of layout as a guitar player. Needing to remember different hand shapes to play a major chords took a long time to get used to - would love to be able to just "slide up" the shape like you do on guitar with bar chords.
- iAMkenough 11d ago
  The House of the Rising Sun test of the commercial version of this keyboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlZv13YZzSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlZv13YZzSM
- coldpie 11d ago
  I'm also primarily a guitar player. I picked up a piano accordion earlier this year, and I'm wondering if I should've gotten a button accordion instead[1]. A linear piano layout is just hard to wrap my head around, hahah. I guess it's probably good to learn, though, so I'll stick with it. [1] Piano accordion on top, button accordion with isomorphic layout on bottom: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_converter_free-bass_piano-accordion_and_a_Russian_bayan.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_converter_free-bas...
dsego 11d ago
Not only the bass buttons, there is a type of chromatic button accordion, popular in eastern europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Z4iPyFmAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Z4iPyFmAE
- gpvos 11d ago
  And then there are diatonic accordions, which all use a similar layout both for the bass and melody sides (but you can't play in all keys[0] on them, that's the difference between chromatic and diatonic). While they are simpler than chromatic accordions, they are now usually more expensive because fewer people play them. [0] that is, ~"scales"; usually all buttons will be working
- 11d ago

pluc 11d ago

Been a while since I've seen an HTTP-only website

triclops200 11d ago

I play the lumatone (https://www.lumatone.io/ https://www.lumatone.io/) which is very similar. I personally love it, especially as I like to do a lot of improv in various tunings, and the layout makes transposing and thinking about structure so much easier than a traditional keyboard. The terpstra seems similar, not sure what their selling point is over the lumatone. Edit: oh, it seems that the lumatone is the commercialized version essentially. Great hardware, can reccomend!

nh2 11d ago
> oh, it seems that the lumatone is the commercialized version essentially From the same makers or others? On the website I can find no info whether this project is concluded or not.
gcanyon 11d ago
Any idea why something like this costs $5,000? It seems like manufacturing costs would justify 1/10th of that maybe? Disclaimer: I'm not a hardware manufacturer nor retailer, I'm just going off what regular typing keyboards go for.
- fxwin 11d ago
  > I'm just going off what regular typing keyboards go for. Are there any regular typing keyboards with velocity sensitive keys? I genuinely don't know, it's just the first thing I'd compare this to
  - gcanyon 11d ago
    Yeah, velocity definitely jumped out at me as a difference, but it seems(?) like being velocity-sensitive could 2x the cost, maybe even 3x, but not 10x ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm absolutely not calling it over-priced, just puzzled.
    - ianthehenry 11d ago
      Well the only moving part in a typing keyboards is a mass-produced switch that you slot into a PCB. There are mass-produced hall effect switches that can provide velocity sensitivity, but it's a pretty distant comparison. The keys on a lumatone aren't anything like buttons; they're weighted mechanical arms with significant travel -- much more like a piano key than a keyboard key. And it has 280 of these! The degree of mechanical hardware in this thing makes it seem not really comparable to a PCB with some switches slotted into it. That said! There are people making DIY isomorphic keyboards using hall-effect keyboard switches. None are commercially available right now, but see e.g. the MidiHex at https://gullsonix.co.uk/ https://gullsonix.co.uk/. You could make one for a fraction of the cost of a lumatone -- but of course it would be a very different instrument.

ttoinou 11d ago

French music researcher and youtuber “Mathémusiques” also has a weird experiment with 2D graphs for music notes Here a simulation https://thetonnetz.com/ https://thetonnetz.com/

QuantumAtom 11d ago

I don't know why, but I'm thinking songs to Moog to.

einpoklum 11d ago

This looks like the Go of keyboards. If I hit the keys encircling a group of other keys maybe I can flip their color 8-|

Tistron 11d ago
You're mixing up Go and Othello :)

thih9 11d ago

https://polyend.com/keys/ https://polyend.com/keys/ A recent product concept, computer keyboard with function keys arranged like piano keys. Also intersects music, technology and keyboard layout, but from a different angle.

mehackernewsacc 11d ago
Just be aware that Polyend's modus operandi is to constantly churn out new hardware and not properly support and fix bugs in the software of things already released. Always on to the next thing.

hnd9q09qk4 11d ago

[dead]

dsego 11d ago

Reminds me of the chromatic button accordion.

833dong 11d ago

[flagged]

hasanpiker 11d ago

[dead]

throwaway2037 11d ago

HTTP insecure in 2026. Wild!

N19PEDL2 11d ago

Why is it redirecting to the website of a Romanian IT company? Edit: it seems it's doing so on Firefox, but not on Edge.

altairprime 11d ago

For those just now encountering isomorphic keyboards, my experience with them is purely in software on a tablet, courtesy of a pair of extremely tangential links that I encountered a while back. While esoteric, they're what have made me wish that I was wealthy enough to get a physical isomorphic panel for a hobby — but as a non-pro and student, it's not yet time, so software it is. There are various websites and apps that implement them — either isomorphic or microtonal + either keyboard or midi should locate them for whatever platform is of interest. And then, for two things completely tangential: Physicists may particularly appreciate that someone made a distorted isomorphic keyboard layout that implements 5-limit just intervals and it ends up being a quasicrystal. While not a true isomorphic, it certainly draws connections that I don't otherwise get to talk about on HN much, and if one were to take the 7-JI 3-D quasicrystal and combine it with a webcam theremin, I'm sure the results would be entertaining. https://old.reddit.com/r/microtonal/comments/1l1m0e6/quasiisomorphic_keyboards_and_octave_reduction_in/ https://old.reddit.com/r/microtonal/comments/1l1m0e6/quasiis... Caftaphata is one woman's ten year project to create a conlang ('constructed language') that converts human mandibular positions into 5-D chords and builds a tetris-block language of phonetic rules out of them. There are maybe twenty videos posted so far presenting each stage of the grammar and construction patterns. Each chord is a word constructed by plain rules. Studying these videos since they launched a year ago is what led me to learn about isomorphic keyboards. The accompanying instructional videos also have the distinction of being narrated fully in Lisatopian (the creator's first conlang), so not only sound but also subtitles end up being required. This is the Caftaphata intro video; 5 minutes, sound is mandatory and may feel dissonant at times: https://youtu.be/cMnuMjXeHrY https://youtu.be/cMnuMjXeHrY

jzb 11d ago

Finally, a keyboard that’s perfect for Emacs.

HelloUsername 11d ago

Last year discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44308558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44308558

Fnoord 11d ago

HTTP;DR If you got a product to demonstrate, have the dignity to use HTTPS. With a remotely exploitable vulnerability in Google Chrome V8 in the wild, all the more reason to. Even though I am using Mozilla Firefox, there's probably some Chromium-based software I use.

leni536 11d ago
I don't see how https is relevant for browser JS vulnerabilities.
- speedgoose 11d ago
  Man in the middle attacks are much easier.

Blackthorn 11d ago

I have a Lumatone and I do like it, but I think the benefits of isomorphism are somewhat oversold. It does let you think in intervals, but on the other hand thinking in steps becomes harder.

xhevahir 11d ago
When i play my Axis-49 keyboard i find that i don't know how to do voice leading. I guess it's kind of like a guitar in that respect too.

sharkjacobs 11d ago

I really expected this to be something from Brett Terpstra https://brettterpstra.com/topic/keyboard/ https://brettterpstra.com/topic/keyboard/

encomiast 11d ago

The video makes claims about how much easier it is to learn to play with this keyboard layout vs, the traditional piano layout. But learning the chords has never been the difficult part of playing the piano. Learning arpeggios, scales, repertoire, all while being relaxed and expressive is the hard part. I wonder if this makes any of that easier? It seems like this can get you from zero to the equivalent of picking up a few chords and how to strum on guitar fairly quickly. But I would be curious what mastery of this instrument looks like? If you were the Oscar Peterson or Franz Liszt of this thing, how would the layout limit or enable you?

Ozzie-D 11d ago

[flagged]

signa11 11d ago

this gives me serious art-lebedev keyboard vibes. anyone here remember those ?

jpease 11d ago

Seems like a Novation Launchpad (or similar) checks a lot of the same boxes, for a fraction of the cost and desk space.