4 ms·

I’m convinced consciousness isn’t the special thing we think it is.

nozzlegear 14d ago
I'm convinced it is, so we're at an impasse.
imtringued 14d ago
If consciousness isn't a special thing, then arguing that LLM parameters are conscious is panpsychism or any control loop architecture that observes the outside world, updates an internal state and produces an observable action is considered conscious. In both cases, LLMs are just as boring as the consciousness definition.
bayindirh 14d ago
I'm convinced that consciousness is a special thing we have, but we're not the only ones which has this, in nature. On the other hand, I'm also convinced that, in the grand scheme of things, we're not that important. We're just ants on a wet dust speck which believe that they are gods because we can't see how our scale compares to the universe around us, and happen to build tools and things with these tools. Nothing is meaningless, but we should stop seeing ourselves as the apex-predator of the whole universe or the set of universes or this run of the simulation or whatever we're in.
- WarmWash 13d ago
  To be fair, the ones thing you can kind of reliably conclude about our universe is that keeping entropy low for as long as possible is a favorable condition. To put that another way, don't die.
dboreham 14d ago
A strong hint this is the case is the fact that nobody can define consciousness.
- estearum 14d ago
  Why would the impossibility of defining consciousness suggest that it's not a big deal?
  - groby_b 13d ago
    Because it's completely dwarfed by florpedness. I can't define that either, but I just know it's more important. Less facetiously: A debate of the importance of something needs a shared understanding of what is being debated. Without that, any discussion is merely people shouting that their belief is the right one, and the others are the heathens/idiots - because there isn't even agreement on what is debated.
    - estearum 13d ago
      I'm not asking for a definition of consciousness or an argument for whether it's here or there. I'm asking why the heuristic of "if X is undefinable, then X probably doesn't matter" is a reasonable heuristic.
diedyesterday 13d ago
Yes, Many of the the philosophical concepts which we previously thought were contingent on consciousness (like knowledge, in the philosophical sense, will, intelligence, agency, ...) have almost nothing to do with it, and they look far more important and fundamental (now with LLMs/AI agents, more than before). This is one of the contributions of generative AI to philosophy (with many many more to come).
- estearum 13d ago
  Who are some of the philosophers you're putting under "we" here? I don't think I've ever encountered those arguments.
grantcas 13d ago
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I'm convinced it is, so we're at an impasse.

If consciousness isn't a special thing, then arguing that LLM parameters are conscious is panpsychism or any control loop architecture that observes the outside world, updates an internal state and produces an observable action is considered conscious. In both cases, LLMs are just as boring as the consciousness definition.

bayindirh 14d ago

I'm convinced that consciousness is a special thing we have, but we're not the only ones which has this, in nature. On the other hand, I'm also convinced that, in the grand scheme of things, we're not that important. We're just ants on a wet dust speck which believe that they are gods because we can't see how our scale compares to the universe around us, and happen to build tools and things with these tools. Nothing is meaningless, but we should stop seeing ourselves as the apex-predator of the whole universe or the set of universes or this run of the simulation or whatever we're in.

WarmWash 13d ago
To be fair, the ones thing you can kind of reliably conclude about our universe is that keeping entropy low for as long as possible is a favorable condition. To put that another way, don't die.

dboreham 14d ago

A strong hint this is the case is the fact that nobody can define consciousness.

estearum 14d ago
Why would the impossibility of defining consciousness suggest that it's not a big deal?
- groby_b 13d ago
  Because it's completely dwarfed by florpedness. I can't define that either, but I just know it's more important. Less facetiously: A debate of the importance of something needs a shared understanding of what is being debated. Without that, any discussion is merely people shouting that their belief is the right one, and the others are the heathens/idiots - because there isn't even agreement on what is debated.
  - estearum 13d ago
    I'm not asking for a definition of consciousness or an argument for whether it's here or there. I'm asking why the heuristic of "if X is undefinable, then X probably doesn't matter" is a reasonable heuristic.

diedyesterday 13d ago

Yes, Many of the the philosophical concepts which we previously thought were contingent on consciousness (like knowledge, in the philosophical sense, will, intelligence, agency, ...) have almost nothing to do with it, and they look far more important and fundamental (now with LLMs/AI agents, more than before). This is one of the contributions of generative AI to philosophy (with many many more to come).

estearum 13d ago
Who are some of the philosophers you're putting under "we" here? I don't think I've ever encountered those arguments.

grantcas 13d ago

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