5 ms·

I love Firefox. It just doesn't always feel like it loves me back.

by Telaneo 15d ago

8cvor6j844qw_d6 15d ago
Same. I want to love Firefox, but it does not have the polish on Android compared to Chrome-based browsers.
- connicpu 15d ago
  On Android I use Firefox despite the rough edges simply because the usability gain of the mobile web with ublock Origin is insane. Also it's nice sending tabs between desktop and mobile.
- kxrm 15d ago
  > polish on Android Would you care to expand? I've been using Firefox on Android for years and haven't noticed a lack of polish. However, I am genuinely curious what I am missing out on.
  - glenstein 15d ago
    Same, especially with the recent redesign I think it's actually super polished.
  - PennRobotics 14d ago
    I'll reinstall now for a fresh opinion vs Kiwi (my current least hated mobile browser; Chrome with Extensions minus tab groups or AI junk) Prefaced: I respect Mozilla's mission. All of these criticisms ARE overly harsh. At the same time, app UI should be as invisible as possible to the user, and Mozilla's apps are... "loud" My last installs of Firefox Klar and Developer a year or two ago had the APKs at over 200 MB, no ability to block sound per-site, confusing UI icons (e.g. I couldn't find the forward button after clicking back, abstract shapes for everything), reader mode that doesn't place you at the same place where you were on the original page, annoying gestures that can't be disabled (swiping tabs away UGGGHHHH), Collections which were really quite silly/not my thing, no toolbar customizability like in the desktop app, no WebHID, and data collection on by default. Today, Firefox is under 100 MB. It has very much bought into Android's overrounded/inproperly-whitespaced/shadow-heavy/unintuitively-animated Material 3 Expressive. Like most Material Design apps, this Firefox is ugly in a way that offers zero usability benefit: Despite the excessive margins nearly everywhere the three dot menu and menu search icon are still too close to the screen edge. I would place extra emphasis on the unused 8 mm above and 6 mm below the URL text, which SHOULD be 2% rather than 9% of my screen real estate. I have always felt that Mozilla could join Canonical in dumping the Nickelodeon color scheme. (Did the founders of all these plus FedEx go to Clemson or something??) At least respect my device theme (grey) rather than Grimace purple everywhere! It's particularly strange to me that they have 23 different icons to choose from as well as a "Device Theme" setting but no method of deamethysting all the UI elements. Tab overview and tabs. Holding a tab selects its checkbox, holding it longer does "something" but it's not clear what, I guess "show full URL" and then eventually "Share"? The "swipe tab away" gesture is still there. Closing multiple tabs creates a sequence of "Closed tab (Undo)" toasts, so you aren't actually sure which toast to click that will undo a specific closure. (Coupled with the swipe detail, it becomes annoying accidentally swiping a tab away while deliberately closing others.) Per-tab disabling of Sound is still missing; this is not the same as Autoplay! There are prominent features that I'd never use: private mode icon, "grab tabs from any device", "search your tabs", the giant "FIREFOX IS ON GUARD" reminder, a home screen. New Tab is across the entire screen from the tab overview button, so you either need to enable the New Tab shortcut (which encroaches on URL space) or just live with "tap top-right, tap bottom-right" for every new tab you'll create in your lifetime which is DEFINITELY not nice for one-handed navigation. There was enough space in the tab overview top bar for a "New Tab" button, but then they'd have to ditch the default Jetpack Compose floating action button. Everything else. The shortcut to get to Settings is in a different place on each View. I couldn't find Reader Mode at first. It only shows up on supported pages and is not as customizable as desktop Firefox. Good enough. Collections still seem dumb as hell. Maybe I need to use them to appreciate them. I still have to change just about every default setting to match my personal preferences. WebHID will never be added. There are a lot of passionate opinions on HID/USB in the browser with solid moral stances against its adoption. I get this and generally agree. However. If I want to reprogram a Gen 1 Shure MVX2U with a cellphone---and I often do---my options are writing my own APK or some very quick/dirty Javascript that I can edit/host anywhere. Mozilla takes away the convenient option and leaves only the labor intensive Google-approved technique. Oh, and I guess there's no about:config unless you re-enable it at chrome://geckoview/content/config.xhtml which is not-at-all memorable. :( about:config doesn't matter much anyway, since I can't find any flag that will improve any one complaint I've listed. I liken Firefox to mediocre toilet paper. It gets its job done and is certainly better than nothing but can get irritating to use day after day.
    - kxrm 14d ago
      Thank you for taking the time to write all this out. I've never noticed these issues. I also agree, that these are fair criticisms that Mozilla should address. Also, to be fair to you, I rarely use my phone as a dedicated browsing device so I am probably least representative of someone who relies on their phone as a primary browsing tool. Not implying that you do btw, I just thought I would color my experience with Firefox. I live largely on Desktop and see my phone as a secondary experience so I excuse a lot of this because I get a Native Add-on experience that isn't addressed by Android's Chrome.
      - PennRobotics 14d ago
        No worries. I'm glad I went down the mobile browser rabbit hole again. I tried half a dozen browser this afternoon and then found Omni Browser (another Gecko-based one) and might stick with it. If that still disappoints, I'm cautiously optimistic for Ladybird.
- canibal 15d ago
  But how could it possibly? For work, sure, this kind of minor efficiency means something, so I'll stick with Chromium-base. But for my own phone? This is like the exact type of thing that proves the monopolistic dark patterning. Personally, the modicum of convenience feels super short-sighted compared to the ethical/privacy hangover, not to mention the risk to future availability of a viable competitor.
nik282000 15d ago
Not like Chrome, Chrome feels like it LOVES hanging out with me, looking over my shoulder, telling all it's friends about what I'm working on, what I buy, and how much money I make.
- DrewADesign 15d ago
  Sure, but Firefox doesn’t have to be Chrome to be unacceptable, and Chrome isn’t the only alternative. I reject the idea that Firefox can transgress as much as they want as long as Chrome has gotten worse. And fuck then for buying and killing fakespot.
  - culi 15d ago
    Chrome is the only alternative unless you have access to Safari. Brave, Opera, Edge, etc are all Chromium and will all deprecate Manifest V2 eventually. The V2 mess is just one example of how Google can continue to stangle the web even if you're not using Chrome itself.
    - DrewADesign 15d ago
      I use Waterfox or Librewolf
      - culi 15d ago
        The "I use arch btw" of browsers. Jk but tbh I think group them in with Firefox
        DrewADesign 14d ago
        Maybe librewolf, but Waterfox is a drop-in replacement. Same extension “store”, gets updates quickly, install on every OS I’ve tried (which is usually windows unfortunately) is equally as smooth as Firefox, compatible profiles, etc, etc, etc. You literally just go to a different website to get the installer. It’s harder to install FF developer edition.
stephen_g 15d ago
I use Firefox and I like it (especially being able to use uBlock Origin), but I really dislike what Mozilla has become over the last ten years or so. I think that's the key distinction, I can mostly manage Mozilla's crap by turning off a bunch of stuff in my Firefox settings, but I think it's really important for the web to not use a Chromium based browser.
- s3p 15d ago
  But they have to make money. Else they go away. I don't understand how people think Mozilla can just exist and be permanently solvent forever
  - cpburns2009 15d ago
    Mozilla's not exactly short on funds. They take in at least $500,000,000 every year.
    - glenstein 15d ago
      And it probably costs something like 80% of that to build and maintain a browser and they probably spend less than Google.
    - AnonC 15d ago
      AFAIK, from reading the annual reports years ago, this nice sum of money belongs to Mozilla Foundation, the non-profit that works on making a better web. Mozilla Corporation, the for-profit entity that makes Firefox, doesn’t seem to have as much as it needs. Hence MDN Plus, Mozilla VPN, and other services.
      - dingaling 15d ago
        That's their choice, nobody forced them to implement that corporate structure and they can decide to deconstruct it any time. Google pays Mozilla for default search engine selection in Firefox, no other product. If Mozilla then redirect that money to other non-Firefox ventures then maybe they should explain why.

I love Firefox. It just doesn't always feel like it loves me back.

by Telaneo 15d ago

I love Firefox. It just doesn't always feel like it loves me back.

8cvor6j844qw_d6 15d ago

Same. I want to love Firefox, but it does not have the polish on Android compared to Chrome-based browsers.

connicpu 15d ago
On Android I use Firefox despite the rough edges simply because the usability gain of the mobile web with ublock Origin is insane. Also it's nice sending tabs between desktop and mobile.
kxrm 15d ago
> polish on Android Would you care to expand? I've been using Firefox on Android for years and haven't noticed a lack of polish. However, I am genuinely curious what I am missing out on.
- glenstein 15d ago
  Same, especially with the recent redesign I think it's actually super polished.
- PennRobotics 14d ago
  I'll reinstall now for a fresh opinion vs Kiwi (my current least hated mobile browser; Chrome with Extensions minus tab groups or AI junk) Prefaced: I respect Mozilla's mission. All of these criticisms ARE overly harsh. At the same time, app UI should be as invisible as possible to the user, and Mozilla's apps are... "loud" My last installs of Firefox Klar and Developer a year or two ago had the APKs at over 200 MB, no ability to block sound per-site, confusing UI icons (e.g. I couldn't find the forward button after clicking back, abstract shapes for everything), reader mode that doesn't place you at the same place where you were on the original page, annoying gestures that can't be disabled (swiping tabs away UGGGHHHH), Collections which were really quite silly/not my thing, no toolbar customizability like in the desktop app, no WebHID, and data collection on by default. Today, Firefox is under 100 MB. It has very much bought into Android's overrounded/inproperly-whitespaced/shadow-heavy/unintuitively-animated Material 3 Expressive. Like most Material Design apps, this Firefox is ugly in a way that offers zero usability benefit: Despite the excessive margins nearly everywhere the three dot menu and menu search icon are still too close to the screen edge. I would place extra emphasis on the unused 8 mm above and 6 mm below the URL text, which SHOULD be 2% rather than 9% of my screen real estate. I have always felt that Mozilla could join Canonical in dumping the Nickelodeon color scheme. (Did the founders of all these plus FedEx go to Clemson or something??) At least respect my device theme (grey) rather than Grimace purple everywhere! It's particularly strange to me that they have 23 different icons to choose from as well as a "Device Theme" setting but no method of deamethysting all the UI elements. Tab overview and tabs. Holding a tab selects its checkbox, holding it longer does "something" but it's not clear what, I guess "show full URL" and then eventually "Share"? The "swipe tab away" gesture is still there. Closing multiple tabs creates a sequence of "Closed tab (Undo)" toasts, so you aren't actually sure which toast to click that will undo a specific closure. (Coupled with the swipe detail, it becomes annoying accidentally swiping a tab away while deliberately closing others.) Per-tab disabling of Sound is still missing; this is not the same as Autoplay! There are prominent features that I'd never use: private mode icon, "grab tabs from any device", "search your tabs", the giant "FIREFOX IS ON GUARD" reminder, a home screen. New Tab is across the entire screen from the tab overview button, so you either need to enable the New Tab shortcut (which encroaches on URL space) or just live with "tap top-right, tap bottom-right" for every new tab you'll create in your lifetime which is DEFINITELY not nice for one-handed navigation. There was enough space in the tab overview top bar for a "New Tab" button, but then they'd have to ditch the default Jetpack Compose floating action button. Everything else. The shortcut to get to Settings is in a different place on each View. I couldn't find Reader Mode at first. It only shows up on supported pages and is not as customizable as desktop Firefox. Good enough. Collections still seem dumb as hell. Maybe I need to use them to appreciate them. I still have to change just about every default setting to match my personal preferences. WebHID will never be added. There are a lot of passionate opinions on HID/USB in the browser with solid moral stances against its adoption. I get this and generally agree. However. If I want to reprogram a Gen 1 Shure MVX2U with a cellphone---and I often do---my options are writing my own APK or some very quick/dirty Javascript that I can edit/host anywhere. Mozilla takes away the convenient option and leaves only the labor intensive Google-approved technique. Oh, and I guess there's no about:config unless you re-enable it at chrome://geckoview/content/config.xhtml which is not-at-all memorable. :( about:config doesn't matter much anyway, since I can't find any flag that will improve any one complaint I've listed. I liken Firefox to mediocre toilet paper. It gets its job done and is certainly better than nothing but can get irritating to use day after day.
  - kxrm 14d ago
    Thank you for taking the time to write all this out. I've never noticed these issues. I also agree, that these are fair criticisms that Mozilla should address. Also, to be fair to you, I rarely use my phone as a dedicated browsing device so I am probably least representative of someone who relies on their phone as a primary browsing tool. Not implying that you do btw, I just thought I would color my experience with Firefox. I live largely on Desktop and see my phone as a secondary experience so I excuse a lot of this because I get a Native Add-on experience that isn't addressed by Android's Chrome.
    - PennRobotics 14d ago
      No worries. I'm glad I went down the mobile browser rabbit hole again. I tried half a dozen browser this afternoon and then found Omni Browser (another Gecko-based one) and might stick with it. If that still disappoints, I'm cautiously optimistic for Ladybird.
canibal 15d ago
But how could it possibly? For work, sure, this kind of minor efficiency means something, so I'll stick with Chromium-base. But for my own phone? This is like the exact type of thing that proves the monopolistic dark patterning. Personally, the modicum of convenience feels super short-sighted compared to the ethical/privacy hangover, not to mention the risk to future availability of a viable competitor.

nik282000 15d ago

Not like Chrome, Chrome feels like it LOVES hanging out with me, looking over my shoulder, telling all it's friends about what I'm working on, what I buy, and how much money I make.

DrewADesign 15d ago
Sure, but Firefox doesn’t have to be Chrome to be unacceptable, and Chrome isn’t the only alternative. I reject the idea that Firefox can transgress as much as they want as long as Chrome has gotten worse. And fuck then for buying and killing fakespot.
- culi 15d ago
  Chrome is the only alternative unless you have access to Safari. Brave, Opera, Edge, etc are all Chromium and will all deprecate Manifest V2 eventually. The V2 mess is just one example of how Google can continue to stangle the web even if you're not using Chrome itself.
  - DrewADesign 15d ago
    I use Waterfox or Librewolf
    - culi 15d ago
      The "I use arch btw" of browsers. Jk but tbh I think group them in with Firefox
      - DrewADesign 14d ago
        Maybe librewolf, but Waterfox is a drop-in replacement. Same extension “store”, gets updates quickly, install on every OS I’ve tried (which is usually windows unfortunately) is equally as smooth as Firefox, compatible profiles, etc, etc, etc. You literally just go to a different website to get the installer. It’s harder to install FF developer edition.

stephen_g 15d ago

I use Firefox and I like it (especially being able to use uBlock Origin), but I really dislike what Mozilla has become over the last ten years or so. I think that's the key distinction, I can mostly manage Mozilla's crap by turning off a bunch of stuff in my Firefox settings, but I think it's really important for the web to not use a Chromium based browser.

s3p 15d ago
But they have to make money. Else they go away. I don't understand how people think Mozilla can just exist and be permanently solvent forever
- cpburns2009 15d ago
  Mozilla's not exactly short on funds. They take in at least $500,000,000 every year.
  - glenstein 15d ago
    And it probably costs something like 80% of that to build and maintain a browser and they probably spend less than Google.
  - AnonC 15d ago
    AFAIK, from reading the annual reports years ago, this nice sum of money belongs to Mozilla Foundation, the non-profit that works on making a better web. Mozilla Corporation, the for-profit entity that makes Firefox, doesn’t seem to have as much as it needs. Hence MDN Plus, Mozilla VPN, and other services.
    - dingaling 15d ago
      That's their choice, nobody forced them to implement that corporate structure and they can decide to deconstruct it any time. Google pays Mozilla for default search engine selection in Firefox, no other product. If Mozilla then redirect that money to other non-Firefox ventures then maybe they should explain why.