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this is a super non-popular take on HN. but the entry-level job market has always been tough. with AI, outside the big tech world, it is hard to justify hirin

by suriyaG 23d ago

this is a super non-popular take on HN. but the entry-level job market has always been tough. with AI, outside the big tech world, it is hard to justify hiring entry level engineers as the time to train them ( 1 year+ ) to be productive enough is such a drag on the seniors, when the agents deliver things more care and more edge cases.

slipperybeluga 23d ago
[dead]
cosmic_cheese 23d ago
From personal experience, back in the 2010s it was particularly harsh for those with a non-standard background. What few "opportunities" that existed were a handful of unpaid or grossly underpaid internships which were closed off to those who weren't students or recent graduates. Everybody wanted employees who were ready to start pumping out code with little or no training. That's not to diminish how much more difficult it's become since then but breaking into the industry has never been easy.
- mk89 22d ago
  I agree because there was always this "well, you don't have experience...". Wtf of course i don't, otherwise i would not apply for a junior role!
- tayo42 23d ago
  I feel like I never see anyone else say this. That was about when I got my career started and it was always difficult for me. And now it seems over despite all that work in the begining.
- ghaff 23d ago
  That sounds about right. There was a well-established funnel from schools directly into entry-level positions. Absent that funnel, it's not clear how getting those entry-level positions was ever especially straightforward outside of a very robust tech hiring environment over the past decade.
- y-curious 23d ago
  I got my first dev job by moving laterally within a company from customer support. Helpdesk aka “Helldesk” was a common pipeline for people. I don’t think those jobs are easy to get either now.
CBLT 23d ago
I've been telling people the same thing. The tech industry has been cargo-culting "scaling the organization" where people are rewarded for org size. That zeitgeist has ended, and we've not even overcorrected much the other way.
ydat 23d ago
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lovich 23d ago
The United States corporate culture has reached a failure mode of game theory. The average corporation is allergic to spending any money on training and has pushed all of the costs onto labor. They hope that some other moron will take up the costs and then they can poach the trained employee for cheap, while any corporation that does actually train feels like they should get the employee for cheap afterwards instead of compensating the employee at market rate. Simultaneously the average corporation refuses to do something like have a contract with the employee for X years of labor at a set rate in the exchange for the training because they are also allergic to not being able to change their minds and lay off half their staff the next year. This would be a place for the government to come in and force everyone to pick the good square on the prisoner’s dilemma, but yet again, our corporate culture is allergic to regulation or cooperation. You can still get through a winter or two by eating your seed corn so I guess we’ll just continue barreling down this path.
- kcexn 23d ago
  You can't really force someone to work for X years at a place they don't want to. I don't know if what you're describing is an enforceable contract term.
  - lovich 23d ago
    The terms involve the person paying back the training costs or some penalty if they quit before X years. I saw it once at the beginning of my career but that was nearly 15 years ago. US companies are usually unwilling to enter into any contract with labor because they want the ability to renege on the deal at will, hence the at will states. You see companies making contracts like this with other companies all the time, so I can only assume it’s a cultural value to never make a deal with labor.
  - xboxnolifes 22d ago
    Sure you can, it's effectively the same contract agreement as a sign-on bonus that requires you to stay for at least 6 months. Instead it's training cost that you get saddled with if you leave before X time. Of course, the exact monetary value would have to be spelled out ahead of time. Well, I say sure you can, but I'm not a contract lawyer. It just sounds identical to me. You're not forced to stay, but if you end the contract you have to pay.
MSKJ 23d ago
I (and everyone else) had to take an ethics course in college to get my engineering degree, I think the course should include the value of coaching and passing on knowledge to the next generation. Even from a profit stand point, we need to invest in the entry levels to get mid- senior levels
- suriyaG 22d ago
  a course cannot align wrongly incentivized entities.
johnnyanmac 22d ago
>but the entry-level job market has always been tough. Sure. But it felt like you were able to be hired on merits and potential bore fruit. It's just gotten tougher to the point where it feels more like you need to be a part time content creator just to get noticed for a junior role. Not hired: noticed.

by suriyaG 23d ago

slipperybeluga 23d ago

[dead]

cosmic_cheese 23d ago

From personal experience, back in the 2010s it was particularly harsh for those with a non-standard background. What few "opportunities" that existed were a handful of unpaid or grossly underpaid internships which were closed off to those who weren't students or recent graduates. Everybody wanted employees who were ready to start pumping out code with little or no training. That's not to diminish how much more difficult it's become since then but breaking into the industry has never been easy.

mk89 22d ago
I agree because there was always this "well, you don't have experience...". Wtf of course i don't, otherwise i would not apply for a junior role!
tayo42 23d ago
I feel like I never see anyone else say this. That was about when I got my career started and it was always difficult for me. And now it seems over despite all that work in the begining.
ghaff 23d ago
That sounds about right. There was a well-established funnel from schools directly into entry-level positions. Absent that funnel, it's not clear how getting those entry-level positions was ever especially straightforward outside of a very robust tech hiring environment over the past decade.
y-curious 23d ago
I got my first dev job by moving laterally within a company from customer support. Helpdesk aka “Helldesk” was a common pipeline for people. I don’t think those jobs are easy to get either now.

CBLT 23d ago

I've been telling people the same thing. The tech industry has been cargo-culting "scaling the organization" where people are rewarded for org size. That zeitgeist has ended, and we've not even overcorrected much the other way.

ydat 23d ago

[dead]

lovich 23d ago

The United States corporate culture has reached a failure mode of game theory. The average corporation is allergic to spending any money on training and has pushed all of the costs onto labor. They hope that some other moron will take up the costs and then they can poach the trained employee for cheap, while any corporation that does actually train feels like they should get the employee for cheap afterwards instead of compensating the employee at market rate. Simultaneously the average corporation refuses to do something like have a contract with the employee for X years of labor at a set rate in the exchange for the training because they are also allergic to not being able to change their minds and lay off half their staff the next year. This would be a place for the government to come in and force everyone to pick the good square on the prisoner’s dilemma, but yet again, our corporate culture is allergic to regulation or cooperation. You can still get through a winter or two by eating your seed corn so I guess we’ll just continue barreling down this path.

kcexn 23d ago
You can't really force someone to work for X years at a place they don't want to. I don't know if what you're describing is an enforceable contract term.
- lovich 23d ago
  The terms involve the person paying back the training costs or some penalty if they quit before X years. I saw it once at the beginning of my career but that was nearly 15 years ago. US companies are usually unwilling to enter into any contract with labor because they want the ability to renege on the deal at will, hence the at will states. You see companies making contracts like this with other companies all the time, so I can only assume it’s a cultural value to never make a deal with labor.
- xboxnolifes 22d ago
  Sure you can, it's effectively the same contract agreement as a sign-on bonus that requires you to stay for at least 6 months. Instead it's training cost that you get saddled with if you leave before X time. Of course, the exact monetary value would have to be spelled out ahead of time. Well, I say sure you can, but I'm not a contract lawyer. It just sounds identical to me. You're not forced to stay, but if you end the contract you have to pay.

MSKJ 23d ago

I (and everyone else) had to take an ethics course in college to get my engineering degree, I think the course should include the value of coaching and passing on knowledge to the next generation. Even from a profit stand point, we need to invest in the entry levels to get mid- senior levels

suriyaG 22d ago
a course cannot align wrongly incentivized entities.

johnnyanmac 22d ago

>but the entry-level job market has always been tough. Sure. But it felt like you were able to be hired on merits and potential bore fruit. It's just gotten tougher to the point where it feels more like you need to be a part time content creator just to get noticed for a junior role. Not hired: noticed.