8 ms·

Isn’t that how we got here? Making fun and ridiculing the low status, dumb people said “fuck you” with their vote for him, twice.

by e40 24d ago

estearum 24d ago
No, actually. It's a cute story but there's no evidence of it. We got here by putting two of the most hated people in the country on the ballot against him, twice. One was actively hated for decades by the ultra-powerful evangelical voting bloc and hardly loved even by her own party, then another who couldn't be more closely affiliated with the incumbent during a period of high inflation (globally) that ousted incumbents in virtually every election (globally) that year. These are especially doomed against a completely amoral propaganda machine that's willing to say, in private, that the candidate is "a demonic force", while in public doing everything they can to get him to power (see: Tucker Carlson). Earning legitimate democratic victory against people who are quite literally and explicitly bad-faith actors is very hard. And lastly, Roy Lee, Marc Andreessen and their ilk are nothing like the people who you're referring to. Being a low-status, cheating, amoral loser like Roy Lee is completely distinct from being a lower- or middle-income American worker.
- jkubicek 24d ago
  > We got here by putting two of the most hated people in the country on the ballot against him, twice. I hate this victim-blaming. Democrats deserve heaps of criticism for how they handled the last few elections, but Clinton was the most qualified presidential candidate we've had since maybe McCain in 2008? (I didn't vote for McCain, but it would be hard to argue he wasn't qualified). You said yourself where the blame should lie: > These are especially doomed against a completely amoral propaganda machine... Earning legitimate democratic victory against people who are quite literally and explicitly bad-faith actors is very hard.
  - estearum 24d ago
    There's more to winning elections than being qualified, unfortunately. Blame can be shared among many actors, and generally should be. There's also special value in finding blame in yourself and your own actions where possible, not as a self-flagellation exercise, but because it will reveal if you had levers available you failed to pull for some reason.
  - soraminazuki 19d ago
    This narrative sounds almost like an alternate universe where Bernie Sanders didn't run for president and wasn't pushed to the sidelines by the party he ran under.
- triceratops 24d ago
  > hardly loved even by her own party But why tho? And what does that say about voters who apparently "loved" Trump, a guy who mocked a disabled reporter at a campaign rally, more than her?
  - estearum 24d ago
    Sexism, anti-establishmentism, anti-plutocratism, racism, anti-elitism, etc. Not sure it matters too much in the sense that it's much easier to change the candidate than the electorate. Yeah, Trump's election says very awful things about all of us, and especially his voters.
Arainach 24d ago
No. Fearmongering and lying is how we got here. The narrative of "oh if normal people weren't so mean calling out the awful things these voters say and do, they would have behaved otherwise" is simply not true. For them it's a matter of "winning" and "losing" and damn the consequences. Treating them nice doesn't change anything.
triceratops 24d ago
> Making fun and ridiculing the low status You mean like how Trump mocked a disabled reporter at one of his early campaign rallies?
- estearum 24d ago
  No, I don't mean that. Being a cheat is low-status. Being disabled is not. Americans actually agree on this, by and large.
  - triceratops 24d ago
    Being disabled is a disadvantage in life, just as being low-status is. Whether being disadvantaged is "low status" or not is semantics.
    - estearum 24d ago
      I didn't say to make fun of people who are disadvantaged. I said to make fun of liars and cheaters and ensure that everyone is reaffirmed that lying and cheating is low status.
Arodex 24d ago
"Look at what you made me do." Has it ever occurred to these low status people that their low status is due to their bad choices in life? No, it's all the fault of others: the black people, the brown people, the weird people...

Isn’t that how we got here? Making fun and ridiculing the low status, dumb people said “fuck you” with their vote for him, twice.

by e40 24d ago

Isn’t that how we got here? Making fun and ridiculing the low status, dumb people said “fuck you” with their vote for him, twice.

estearum 24d ago

No, actually. It's a cute story but there's no evidence of it. We got here by putting two of the most hated people in the country on the ballot against him, twice. One was actively hated for decades by the ultra-powerful evangelical voting bloc and hardly loved even by her own party, then another who couldn't be more closely affiliated with the incumbent during a period of high inflation (globally) that ousted incumbents in virtually every election (globally) that year. These are especially doomed against a completely amoral propaganda machine that's willing to say, in private, that the candidate is "a demonic force", while in public doing everything they can to get him to power (see: Tucker Carlson). Earning legitimate democratic victory against people who are quite literally and explicitly bad-faith actors is very hard. And lastly, Roy Lee, Marc Andreessen and their ilk are nothing like the people who you're referring to. Being a low-status, cheating, amoral loser like Roy Lee is completely distinct from being a lower- or middle-income American worker.

jkubicek 24d ago
> We got here by putting two of the most hated people in the country on the ballot against him, twice. I hate this victim-blaming. Democrats deserve heaps of criticism for how they handled the last few elections, but Clinton was the most qualified presidential candidate we've had since maybe McCain in 2008? (I didn't vote for McCain, but it would be hard to argue he wasn't qualified). You said yourself where the blame should lie: > These are especially doomed against a completely amoral propaganda machine... Earning legitimate democratic victory against people who are quite literally and explicitly bad-faith actors is very hard.
- estearum 24d ago
  There's more to winning elections than being qualified, unfortunately. Blame can be shared among many actors, and generally should be. There's also special value in finding blame in yourself and your own actions where possible, not as a self-flagellation exercise, but because it will reveal if you had levers available you failed to pull for some reason.
- soraminazuki 19d ago
  This narrative sounds almost like an alternate universe where Bernie Sanders didn't run for president and wasn't pushed to the sidelines by the party he ran under.
triceratops 24d ago
> hardly loved even by her own party But why tho? And what does that say about voters who apparently "loved" Trump, a guy who mocked a disabled reporter at a campaign rally, more than her?
- estearum 24d ago
  Sexism, anti-establishmentism, anti-plutocratism, racism, anti-elitism, etc. Not sure it matters too much in the sense that it's much easier to change the candidate than the electorate. Yeah, Trump's election says very awful things about all of us, and especially his voters.

Arainach 24d ago

No. Fearmongering and lying is how we got here. The narrative of "oh if normal people weren't so mean calling out the awful things these voters say and do, they would have behaved otherwise" is simply not true. For them it's a matter of "winning" and "losing" and damn the consequences. Treating them nice doesn't change anything.

triceratops 24d ago

> Making fun and ridiculing the low status You mean like how Trump mocked a disabled reporter at one of his early campaign rallies?

estearum 24d ago
No, I don't mean that. Being a cheat is low-status. Being disabled is not. Americans actually agree on this, by and large.
- triceratops 24d ago
  Being disabled is a disadvantage in life, just as being low-status is. Whether being disadvantaged is "low status" or not is semantics.
  - estearum 24d ago
    I didn't say to make fun of people who are disadvantaged. I said to make fun of liars and cheaters and ensure that everyone is reaffirmed that lying and cheating is low status.

Arodex 24d ago

"Look at what you made me do." Has it ever occurred to these low status people that their low status is due to their bad choices in life? No, it's all the fault of others: the black people, the brown people, the weird people...