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Germany has still one of the highest electricity and energy prices among developed nations which tremendously hurts its industrial base. That has to change too

Germany has still one of the highest electricity and energy prices among developed nations which tremendously hurts its industrial base. That has to change too unless this cannot really be called a success I think.

tonyedgecombe 1mo ago
The further we go down the renewables route the less we depend on despotic states for our energy. Energy may well be cheap in the US but you have been paying for that for decades through military misadventures in the middle east.
- Lord-Jobo 1mo ago
  It’s not possible to truly estimate what our military costs would be without those conflicts, but I would be interested in our energy costs if you incorporated the military costs into that. I’m willing to bet we pay more than nearly anyone else if you lump it in relatively fairly.
  - hunterpayne 1mo ago
    The GWOT was 7% of the US military budget. Also, the US doesn't get oil from the Middle East anymore. Its been about 10 years since we did.
- bradfa 1mo ago
  We've gotten pretty good at digging holes in the ground and there's a lot of existing energy down there under our land (and near-by water). So yes, we've certainly had misadventures in the middle east, but we've also embraced the "drill baby drill" mantra of late. Texas is probably our national leader in terms of deploying solar and wind power, which feels ironic but is totally rational and logical.
- toasty228 1mo ago
  > The further we go down the renewables route the less we depend on despotic states for our energy. 80% of solar panels/batteries/windmills are made in China. We wouldn't even be able to make them without fossil fuels in the first place. Not even talking about the electronics that is needed
  - eigenspace 1mo ago
    German wind turbines largely don't come from China, but even if they did, the difference is that if China stopped selling us solar panels, batteries and wind turbines, the existing infrastructure would continue to function for decades to come while we work out a domestic replacement supply chain. This is in stark contrast to fossil fuels, where it's infeasible to stockpile more than a few months of usage, and if suppliers turn off the tap, you're at their mercy almost instantly. If China stopped supplying solar panels or batteries, it'd spark a frenzy of activity and demand for locally produced replacements, and there would be enough time for those to come online.
    - hunterpayne 1mo ago
      The rare earths do come from China and that's where most of the environmental damage they cause happens. Rare earths can be mined almost anywhere. They aren't rare but they also aren't concentrated because they aren't water soluble. They are mined in places that don't care about environmental damage, not in places where specific geologic conditions exist (like everything else except AL). Also, you need them to make generators. When you put those generators in wind instead of in hydro or nuclear, you waste them. This is because they will generate 6 to 9 times as much power in hydro or nuclear plants as in a wind turbine.
      - eigenspace 1mo ago
        The generators are not the expensive or hard part of building hydro or nuclear, so I have no idea why you're making that comparison. Wind power is an incredibly cheap form of power. Your point about rare earths is more or less covered by my previous comment about solar panels and batteries. Besides, rare earths is actually a supply chain that's being rapidly de-risked from China as we speak anyways.
      - mrob 1mo ago
        Big generators in power plants use alternators with field windings, not permanent magnets. Wind turbines use either permanent magnet generators or induction generators. Permanent magnets generators are more efficient, especially at low wind speeds, but we can do without them if necessary.
- clarionbell 1mo ago
  Who is making all those solar cells and batteries? I'll give you a hint, it's not a European country.
mertbio 1mo ago
The electricity prices for the industry are around the same since 2014: https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompreisanalyse/ https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompre...
- AlexandrB 1mo ago
  No they aren't, it looks like the prices doubled and the government significantly cut taxes to hide the increase. That's not to mention the 3 year price spike during 2021-2023. Who's paying for the lost revenue from the tax cuts?
  - umpalumpaaa 1mo ago
    Yeah and the tax reduction will end in 2028. What I said still stands: German electricity prices for the industry are and will be one of the highest in the world.
    - tfourb 1mo ago
      The tax reduction will almost certainly be extended and not be allowed to sunset. Industry electricity costs are more or less in line with other highly developed countries around the world and will remain so. Also, many larger industrial companies do not source their electricity from the common grid, but have dedicated power plants and increasingly their own investments in renewable energy production.
      - umpalumpaaa 1mo ago
        No company invests billions into industry projects with that kind of political uncertainty. You can see it in the numbers: BASF stopped basically all investments in Germany. You cannot bet your whole company on a tax cut that was recently introduced and is already scheduled to disappear.
        tfourb 1mo ago
toomuchtodo 1mo ago
Ember Energy: European electricity prices and costs - https://ember-energy.org/data/european-electricity-prices-and-costs/ https://ember-energy.org/data/european-electricity-prices-an... (updated daily)
eigenspace 1mo ago
Germany's electrical prices are mostly in line with it's neighbours, not super high. If a company makes good usage of batteries, they could actually have quite low prices since the electrical price undergoes huge swings throughout the day. All spring through fall the spot price goes to or near zero at midday almost daily. Throughout the winter, wind is a bit more random but causes spells of high prices and spells of low prices. The main thing causing electrical usage prices to be high in Germany is grid charges for the gigantic grid infrastructure buildout. Germany's electrical grid is one of the most resilient and interconnected in the world, and it's rapidly being upgraded to accommodate the huge build-out of wind, solar, and batteries that is underway. I agree that the government should probably shoulder more of these grid-costs to take some burden off of major industrial users.
- umpalumpaaa 1mo ago
  Even if prices were in line with Germanys neighbors, that does not mean a lot. Germanys industry is notoriously energy hungry. Germany is home of the biggest chemical companies in the world and they need easy access to gas, oil, electricity etc. Also the car industry is obviously still big. And so on. Most countries in the world lost their industrial base during the last 20-40 years but Germany kept it for the most part because of several factors. But this means that the average company in Germany needs easier and cheaper access to energy and raw materials than other average companies in other countries
  - eigenspace 1mo ago
    I was just pointing out that the claim that it has abnormally high energy prices among developed nations isn't quite true. I do agree though, that even just having 'normal' energy prices for a developed nation makes it very hard to be an industrial powerhouse. IMO the only way forward is for Germany to build more energy infrastructure. Most importantly, we need more solar wind and batteries, but we also need upgrades to gas peaker plants, and more long-distance HVDC connections to neighbouring countries to better smooth out variations in weather that are inherent to intermittent renewables. Doubling down on fossil fuels won't bring down Germany's energy costs.
ajsnigrutin 1mo ago
The problem with electricity for industrial use is, that you also need electricity during long, dark, cloudy winters, when there is very little solar power available. Somehow all the "green" supporters are all afraid of nuclear powerplants for some reason and instead prefer coal, even though there's more radioactive crap going into the air from that than from nuclear plants.
- tfourb 1mo ago
  Hungary just instituted quite extreme power savings policies (including stopping all industrial train traffic during the day), because it can't cool its nuclear power plant due to a lack of water in the Danube and 40% of its electricity production went bye bye. Same situation in Romania and France had similar problems a few years ago and will likely have them again this year. "Green" supporters prefer renewable energy, because it allows you to build a resilient and distributed network of production, distribution and storage that can't be easily disrupted by any one shock event at the fraction of the cost of nuclear (if you count subsidies and government financed research, not even considering the socialization of insurance against accidents).
  - hunterpayne 1mo ago
    There is nothing resilient about renewables. Ask Spain about that. They aren't disrupted by one shock event but instead they are disrupted almost daily (and I'm not talking about nighttime). Also, Europe is too far north for Solar PV to make any sense at most of the places that people actually live...like Germany.
    - eigenspace 1mo ago
      Spain's shut down was the same reason Spain has cheap electricity compared to Germany: They've chronically underfunded their grid infrastructure and haven't properly adapted to a renewable grid. Germany has extremely high renewable penetration, and has one of the most stable grids (if not the most) in the world.
    - tfourb 1mo ago
nashashmi 1mo ago
They are also one of the few nations with high export to import ratios. If it is weighing down industry then it is a great loss factor in the race against china.
piva00 1mo ago
For that to change they need to not depend on expensive power plants (such as coal, gas, etc.), the bidding process for the electricity market in the EU will price the 15-minute window kWh price to the most expensive source providing power to the electricity zone being supplied. Unless there's a revolution in this pricing mechanism the only way for Germany to lower its electricity prices is through renewables build out to push away the more expensive sources.

tonyedgecombe 1mo ago

The further we go down the renewables route the less we depend on despotic states for our energy. Energy may well be cheap in the US but you have been paying for that for decades through military misadventures in the middle east.

Lord-Jobo 1mo ago
It’s not possible to truly estimate what our military costs would be without those conflicts, but I would be interested in our energy costs if you incorporated the military costs into that. I’m willing to bet we pay more than nearly anyone else if you lump it in relatively fairly.
- hunterpayne 1mo ago
  The GWOT was 7% of the US military budget. Also, the US doesn't get oil from the Middle East anymore. Its been about 10 years since we did.
bradfa 1mo ago
We've gotten pretty good at digging holes in the ground and there's a lot of existing energy down there under our land (and near-by water). So yes, we've certainly had misadventures in the middle east, but we've also embraced the "drill baby drill" mantra of late. Texas is probably our national leader in terms of deploying solar and wind power, which feels ironic but is totally rational and logical.
toasty228 1mo ago
> The further we go down the renewables route the less we depend on despotic states for our energy. 80% of solar panels/batteries/windmills are made in China. We wouldn't even be able to make them without fossil fuels in the first place. Not even talking about the electronics that is needed
- eigenspace 1mo ago
  German wind turbines largely don't come from China, but even if they did, the difference is that if China stopped selling us solar panels, batteries and wind turbines, the existing infrastructure would continue to function for decades to come while we work out a domestic replacement supply chain. This is in stark contrast to fossil fuels, where it's infeasible to stockpile more than a few months of usage, and if suppliers turn off the tap, you're at their mercy almost instantly. If China stopped supplying solar panels or batteries, it'd spark a frenzy of activity and demand for locally produced replacements, and there would be enough time for those to come online.
  - hunterpayne 1mo ago
    The rare earths do come from China and that's where most of the environmental damage they cause happens. Rare earths can be mined almost anywhere. They aren't rare but they also aren't concentrated because they aren't water soluble. They are mined in places that don't care about environmental damage, not in places where specific geologic conditions exist (like everything else except AL). Also, you need them to make generators. When you put those generators in wind instead of in hydro or nuclear, you waste them. This is because they will generate 6 to 9 times as much power in hydro or nuclear plants as in a wind turbine.
    - eigenspace 1mo ago
      The generators are not the expensive or hard part of building hydro or nuclear, so I have no idea why you're making that comparison. Wind power is an incredibly cheap form of power. Your point about rare earths is more or less covered by my previous comment about solar panels and batteries. Besides, rare earths is actually a supply chain that's being rapidly de-risked from China as we speak anyways.
    - mrob 1mo ago
      Big generators in power plants use alternators with field windings, not permanent magnets. Wind turbines use either permanent magnet generators or induction generators. Permanent magnets generators are more efficient, especially at low wind speeds, but we can do without them if necessary.
clarionbell 1mo ago
Who is making all those solar cells and batteries? I'll give you a hint, it's not a European country.

mertbio 1mo ago

The electricity prices for the industry are around the same since 2014: https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompreisanalyse/ https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompre...

AlexandrB 1mo ago
No they aren't, it looks like the prices doubled and the government significantly cut taxes to hide the increase. That's not to mention the 3 year price spike during 2021-2023. Who's paying for the lost revenue from the tax cuts?
- umpalumpaaa 1mo ago
  Yeah and the tax reduction will end in 2028. What I said still stands: German electricity prices for the industry are and will be one of the highest in the world.
  - tfourb 1mo ago
    The tax reduction will almost certainly be extended and not be allowed to sunset. Industry electricity costs are more or less in line with other highly developed countries around the world and will remain so. Also, many larger industrial companies do not source their electricity from the common grid, but have dedicated power plants and increasingly their own investments in renewable energy production.
    - umpalumpaaa 1mo ago
      No company invests billions into industry projects with that kind of political uncertainty. You can see it in the numbers: BASF stopped basically all investments in Germany. You cannot bet your whole company on a tax cut that was recently introduced and is already scheduled to disappear.
      - tfourb 1mo ago

toomuchtodo 1mo ago

Ember Energy: European electricity prices and costs - https://ember-energy.org/data/european-electricity-prices-and-costs/ https://ember-energy.org/data/european-electricity-prices-an... (updated daily)

eigenspace 1mo ago

Germany's electrical prices are mostly in line with it's neighbours, not super high. If a company makes good usage of batteries, they could actually have quite low prices since the electrical price undergoes huge swings throughout the day. All spring through fall the spot price goes to or near zero at midday almost daily. Throughout the winter, wind is a bit more random but causes spells of high prices and spells of low prices. The main thing causing electrical usage prices to be high in Germany is grid charges for the gigantic grid infrastructure buildout. Germany's electrical grid is one of the most resilient and interconnected in the world, and it's rapidly being upgraded to accommodate the huge build-out of wind, solar, and batteries that is underway. I agree that the government should probably shoulder more of these grid-costs to take some burden off of major industrial users.

umpalumpaaa 1mo ago
Even if prices were in line with Germanys neighbors, that does not mean a lot. Germanys industry is notoriously energy hungry. Germany is home of the biggest chemical companies in the world and they need easy access to gas, oil, electricity etc. Also the car industry is obviously still big. And so on. Most countries in the world lost their industrial base during the last 20-40 years but Germany kept it for the most part because of several factors. But this means that the average company in Germany needs easier and cheaper access to energy and raw materials than other average companies in other countries
- eigenspace 1mo ago
  I was just pointing out that the claim that it has abnormally high energy prices among developed nations isn't quite true. I do agree though, that even just having 'normal' energy prices for a developed nation makes it very hard to be an industrial powerhouse. IMO the only way forward is for Germany to build more energy infrastructure. Most importantly, we need more solar wind and batteries, but we also need upgrades to gas peaker plants, and more long-distance HVDC connections to neighbouring countries to better smooth out variations in weather that are inherent to intermittent renewables. Doubling down on fossil fuels won't bring down Germany's energy costs.

ajsnigrutin 1mo ago

The problem with electricity for industrial use is, that you also need electricity during long, dark, cloudy winters, when there is very little solar power available. Somehow all the "green" supporters are all afraid of nuclear powerplants for some reason and instead prefer coal, even though there's more radioactive crap going into the air from that than from nuclear plants.

tfourb 1mo ago
Hungary just instituted quite extreme power savings policies (including stopping all industrial train traffic during the day), because it can't cool its nuclear power plant due to a lack of water in the Danube and 40% of its electricity production went bye bye. Same situation in Romania and France had similar problems a few years ago and will likely have them again this year. "Green" supporters prefer renewable energy, because it allows you to build a resilient and distributed network of production, distribution and storage that can't be easily disrupted by any one shock event at the fraction of the cost of nuclear (if you count subsidies and government financed research, not even considering the socialization of insurance against accidents).
- hunterpayne 1mo ago
  There is nothing resilient about renewables. Ask Spain about that. They aren't disrupted by one shock event but instead they are disrupted almost daily (and I'm not talking about nighttime). Also, Europe is too far north for Solar PV to make any sense at most of the places that people actually live...like Germany.
  - eigenspace 1mo ago
    Spain's shut down was the same reason Spain has cheap electricity compared to Germany: They've chronically underfunded their grid infrastructure and haven't properly adapted to a renewable grid. Germany has extremely high renewable penetration, and has one of the most stable grids (if not the most) in the world.
  - tfourb 1mo ago

nashashmi 1mo ago

They are also one of the few nations with high export to import ratios. If it is weighing down industry then it is a great loss factor in the race against china.

piva00 1mo ago

For that to change they need to not depend on expensive power plants (such as coal, gas, etc.), the bidding process for the electricity market in the EU will price the 15-minute window kWh price to the most expensive source providing power to the electricity zone being supplied. Unless there's a revolution in this pricing mechanism the only way for Germany to lower its electricity prices is through renewables build out to push away the more expensive sources.