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I don't understand where the all the EU anti-trust and anti-corruption regulators are here. _Governments_ enforcing that you have a Google or Apple account to p

I don't understand where the all the EU anti-trust and anti-corruption regulators are here. _Governments_ enforcing that you have a Google or Apple account to participate in society is transparently absurd. This isn't only a digital sovereignty issue, it's also an anti-competition issue.

mosura 2mo ago
The EU way is to think these things are “free” and then act surprised by the inevitable consequences five years later when it is irreversible. Our AI gods cannot save us soon enough.
- afandian 2mo ago
  What are the "AI gods" going to do in this scenario? AI is about many things, but a big factor is enclosure.
petcat 2mo ago
The reality of the matter is that it is virtually impossible for Europe to even begin to displace Apple or Google devices, and especially not operating systems and all the ecosystem that goes along with it. The EU politicians are just publicly paying lip-service to "digital sovereignty" while they quietly hope this all just blows over when Trump is gone in 2 years.
- realusername 2mo ago
  > it is virtually impossible for Europe to even begin to displace Apple or Google devices It's hard for sure but they are not even trying, the non-duopoly alternatives are run by hobbyists in their free time and just get shit on by EU bureaucrats
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    What do you expect - the EU to centrally plan a phone OS? They are capitalist with regulations, you know, not communist. Someone has to actually make one themselves. Most of the free hardware and software alternatives are already European, like MNT, and GrapheneOS. They just don't have market share.
    - realusername 2mo ago
      What do I expect? Mandating open bootloaders by law, banning device attestation and applying existing antitrust legislation. Then if they could give a few millions to some open source communities, that could be the cherry on top
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        Now that would be pretty good. I thought there was already an unlockable bootloader mandate but it seems I was mistaken. Most phone makers openly violate GPL and don't get punished, too.
    - petcat 2mo ago
      > are already European, like MNT, and GrapheneOS GrapheneOS is Canadian.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        After France drove them away, right?
- afandian 2mo ago
  Agreed, I doubt that a mega-behemoth like Google or Microsoft could emerge in Europe. Especially not on a compressed timescale. But if they really wanted digital verification without the surveillance capitalism built in, I’m sure there are plenty of companies that could do it. Especially if it was around an open source framework.
tzs 2mo ago
My understanding is that you are not forced to use this. Sites in the EU that will be required to verify user age will be free to use any method they wish as long as they can show it is as effective as the app and it does not violate privacy laws. Most analysts expect sites will offer multiple ways, for a variety of reasons. Eventually when the full EU Digital Identity Wallet is available age checks can be done using that and the age-only app will go away. For the full wallet the rules explicitly require platforms to have fallback mechanisms for users who are not using the digital wallet.
- _jackdk_ 2mo ago
  And how, exactly, will one acquire this "full EU Digital Identity Wallet"? Will I be able to compile it from source and run it on a computing device of my own choosing?
- petcat 2mo ago
  "Most analysts" actually expect the opposite: https://waag.org/en/article/european-digital-id-wallets-are-gift-google-and-apple/ https://waag.org/en/article/european-digital-id-wallets-are-... Websites will do the easiest, lowest friction, and most user-familiar thing possible to comply with the laws. And that is just Google or Apple device attestation.
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  > Most analysts expect Total bullshit. There is no "effective" method without hardware remote attestation. If I control the system, I can just spoof whatever "verification" it is you're asking. The whole point of hardware attestation is to put a cryptographic key in the computer that the users can't ever get at, then use that key to prove the computer booted a corporate owned operating system that's 100% aligned with government and capitalist surveillance and other cyberpunk dystopia nonsense. Install a custom system that you control and they will say you have "tampered" with your device, and that transgression will get you ostracized from digital society. This is what will happen, and if we let it happen might as well close down this site because everything the word hacker ever stood for will have been destroyed.
varispeed 2mo ago
Anti-corruption regulators are paid to look away. If they start investigating corruption like e.g. Ukraine does, then the EU countries will be perceived as corrupt. The goal of these institutions is to keep things under the rug so to speak. That's why you barely see anything being done and yet everyone can see how corrupt things are.
txrx0000 2mo ago
This is the correct intuition. The problem can be solved with antitrust by forcing hardware vendors to ship their devices without an operating system. Then the market will deliver the parenting solutions that don't require mass surveillance. We're currently being blocked from doing so by anti-competitive measures. For a more detailed explanation of what the root of the problem is, see a past comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49118578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49118578
wmf 2mo ago
Their solution is to "force open" iOS and Android through the DMA, not to create competition which they know won't work.
toasty228 2mo ago
They already regulate the amount of rain water you can collect, or how much water you can take from your own well, or how many solar panels you're allowed to use You feel bad because it touches your own personal toy, but if you zoom out you'll discover the vast majority of it was already fucked up

mosura 2mo ago

The EU way is to think these things are “free” and then act surprised by the inevitable consequences five years later when it is irreversible. Our AI gods cannot save us soon enough.

afandian 2mo ago
What are the "AI gods" going to do in this scenario? AI is about many things, but a big factor is enclosure.

petcat 2mo ago

The reality of the matter is that it is virtually impossible for Europe to even begin to displace Apple or Google devices, and especially not operating systems and all the ecosystem that goes along with it. The EU politicians are just publicly paying lip-service to "digital sovereignty" while they quietly hope this all just blows over when Trump is gone in 2 years.

realusername 2mo ago
> it is virtually impossible for Europe to even begin to displace Apple or Google devices It's hard for sure but they are not even trying, the non-duopoly alternatives are run by hobbyists in their free time and just get shit on by EU bureaucrats
- inigyou 2mo ago
  What do you expect - the EU to centrally plan a phone OS? They are capitalist with regulations, you know, not communist. Someone has to actually make one themselves. Most of the free hardware and software alternatives are already European, like MNT, and GrapheneOS. They just don't have market share.
  - realusername 2mo ago
    What do I expect? Mandating open bootloaders by law, banning device attestation and applying existing antitrust legislation. Then if they could give a few millions to some open source communities, that could be the cherry on top
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      Now that would be pretty good. I thought there was already an unlockable bootloader mandate but it seems I was mistaken. Most phone makers openly violate GPL and don't get punished, too.
  - petcat 2mo ago
    > are already European, like MNT, and GrapheneOS GrapheneOS is Canadian.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      After France drove them away, right?
afandian 2mo ago
Agreed, I doubt that a mega-behemoth like Google or Microsoft could emerge in Europe. Especially not on a compressed timescale. But if they really wanted digital verification without the surveillance capitalism built in, I’m sure there are plenty of companies that could do it. Especially if it was around an open source framework.

tzs 2mo ago

My understanding is that you are not forced to use this. Sites in the EU that will be required to verify user age will be free to use any method they wish as long as they can show it is as effective as the app and it does not violate privacy laws. Most analysts expect sites will offer multiple ways, for a variety of reasons. Eventually when the full EU Digital Identity Wallet is available age checks can be done using that and the age-only app will go away. For the full wallet the rules explicitly require platforms to have fallback mechanisms for users who are not using the digital wallet.

_jackdk_ 2mo ago
And how, exactly, will one acquire this "full EU Digital Identity Wallet"? Will I be able to compile it from source and run it on a computing device of my own choosing?
petcat 2mo ago
"Most analysts" actually expect the opposite: https://waag.org/en/article/european-digital-id-wallets-are-gift-google-and-apple/ https://waag.org/en/article/european-digital-id-wallets-are-... Websites will do the easiest, lowest friction, and most user-familiar thing possible to comply with the laws. And that is just Google or Apple device attestation.
matheusmoreira 2mo ago
> Most analysts expect Total bullshit. There is no "effective" method without hardware remote attestation. If I control the system, I can just spoof whatever "verification" it is you're asking. The whole point of hardware attestation is to put a cryptographic key in the computer that the users can't ever get at, then use that key to prove the computer booted a corporate owned operating system that's 100% aligned with government and capitalist surveillance and other cyberpunk dystopia nonsense. Install a custom system that you control and they will say you have "tampered" with your device, and that transgression will get you ostracized from digital society. This is what will happen, and if we let it happen might as well close down this site because everything the word hacker ever stood for will have been destroyed.

varispeed 2mo ago

Anti-corruption regulators are paid to look away. If they start investigating corruption like e.g. Ukraine does, then the EU countries will be perceived as corrupt. The goal of these institutions is to keep things under the rug so to speak. That's why you barely see anything being done and yet everyone can see how corrupt things are.

txrx0000 2mo ago

This is the correct intuition. The problem can be solved with antitrust by forcing hardware vendors to ship their devices without an operating system. Then the market will deliver the parenting solutions that don't require mass surveillance. We're currently being blocked from doing so by anti-competitive measures. For a more detailed explanation of what the root of the problem is, see a past comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49118578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49118578

wmf 2mo ago

Their solution is to "force open" iOS and Android through the DMA, not to create competition which they know won't work.

toasty228 2mo ago

They already regulate the amount of rain water you can collect, or how much water you can take from your own well, or how many solar panels you're allowed to use You feel bad because it touches your own personal toy, but if you zoom out you'll discover the vast majority of it was already fucked up