6 ms·

He's also completely missed what many of us see as the primary the issue, HF was attacked by a US frontier model. HF could not be helped by US frontier models

He's also completely missed what many of us see as the primary the issue, HF was attacked by a US frontier model. HF could not be helped by US frontier models because of the "safety" features they have. HF had to use an open model from china. Anthropic wants to add those "safety" features to open models - especially from china. End result would be HF hack would have continued atleast until the Monday that OpenAI engineers finally walked back into work.

rob74 2mo ago
I case you're wondering, HF = Hugging Face
- markdown 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - swiftcoder 2mo ago
    The biggest platform for the distribution of open-weight models
  - rob74 2mo ago
    It's the machine learning platform that started with "developing a chatbot app targeted at teenagers" (according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugging_Face https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugging_Face), which helps explain the weird name (which still makes me think more of one of the development stages of the xenomorphs from Alien than of the emoji, but that's probably just me).
    - nyeah 2mo ago
      It's definitely not just you :)
      - smallmancontrov 2mo ago
        I have it bookmarked as just the emoji because whenever I write the text I still think about the alien spider.
  - gertrunde 2mo ago
    For context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48997548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48997548
  - tempfile 2mo ago
    Surely you can just google this.
  - coldtea 2mo ago
    If you're not familiar with such overall big players, would anything help short of looking at some 101 first?
    - soblemprolver 2mo ago
      I am familiar, yet used this comment to confirm my initial assumption. Abbreviations carry unnecessary cost on the side of the readers. There is always the chance that there is another shorthand for something else that is important and so there is a need to double check interpretations. So thanks for the comment and no, a 101 wouldn't even help with this problem.
      - tough 2mo ago
        if you google "hf hack" the first result is OpenAI post-mortem official blog post so...
        witrak 2mo ago
        Lol! Does it matter? Using an unclear acronym in the first reference to an object, besides adding energy waste (for the execution of unnecessary searches by users unfamiliar with the subject), may only give the author of the comment the thrill of "being well informed, an insider".
        bethekidyouwant 2mo ago
        Wtf is a coca-cola?
        Barbing 2mo ago
        Curse of knowledge. / Unsafe assumption. Some users feel IP address, ISP, and LLM are clear. Fewer of those users will also reference HF. I have had to stop myself and type out Hugging Face. HR perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
      - coldtea 2mo ago
- littlecorner 2mo ago
  Every time I read Hugging Face, my brain first jumps to facehugger from Alien. I really wish they chose a different name...
  - tessellated 2mo ago
    Same here. The creature seems more fitting than the emoji too.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - rob74 2mo ago
    Actually I wrote something similar yesterday as a reply to the (since flagged) comment below. Glad to see that more people have this association. But apparently the founders of Hugging Face didn't have it, or else they probably would have chosen some other "friendly" emoji for their startup (which initially developed a chatbot for teenagers - that makes the choice of name feel even creepier if you ask me).
b112 2mo ago
I think the fair nuance here is, an administration which used Executive Orders to force guardrails, meaning US companies must retain them, even if they might want to drop them now. And on top of that, with low/no guardrails, people call you a child pornographer(grok), so the public is also against it. Yet mysteriously few complain about Chinese open models being child pornographers. So even if your goal isn't ethical, but just fiscal, it's reasonable to say there are two standards. And to complaint in some way. I don't think banning is going to work, that's just silly. And over the next few years, everyone and their dog will have local GPU compute to train locally. People have home labs, the bar isn't that high, and eventually large text datasets will escape from Anthropic and other companies, allowing for comparable training. It's a genie that's not going back in the bottle, the bottle is smashed. The only reasonable outcome would be section 230 style carveouts so that there is zero liability for anything a model does. Because having guardrails on corporate models barely months ahead of open ones, which will never be restricted, is entirely pointless.
- wongarsu 2mo ago
  The "child pornography" thing was about image generation, which people for better or worse have very different moral standards for than for text generation. There is very little pushback against grok being willing to write explicit descriptions of sex, or giving security advise. Though I think your overall point still stands, and at least Grok's twitter bot has received a lot of criticism for pure text too (Mecha hitler comes to mind)
  - notahacker 2mo ago
    It also must be seen in the context that the open weight models aren't commercially associated with a popular distribution site where people share the images, the people behind them aren't public figures seen as encouraging the use of the model for "undressing" (albeit in a funny way not related to minors), and they haven't yet responded to questions about what can be produced using their tool by proposing guardrails but only for non-paying users... Open weight models get scrutinised in a different way, also linked to perceptions of their developers' bias, like the tests to see whether they refuse to answer questions on certain historical events at Tiananmen Square
ppap3 2mo ago
I'm very confident that it was staged and coordinated. This propaganda started because they cannot evolve their models further. See Fable and Sol, they are lame. They seem incredible at first but the more you use you can see the trickery. It is a matter of time for someone to prove they are marginally better only because they inject more information to the harness at server side.
- jimmydoe 2mo ago
  I’m also into this conspiracy theory: ai created bug, ai hacked it, ai fixed it.
  - taude 2mo ago
    just like ai will create amazing tests suits for the broken code it writes, if one isn't carefully watching... EDIT: of course it probably helps to have an up front tdd test suite, but often isn't the case.
    - ppap3 2mo ago
      Live overflow released the video today about it. It is very compelling but I guess there are holes on their hypothesis as well. The summary is that an instance was running on certain benchmarks without any limits or supervision and the AI decided to cheat by exploiting a silly series of vunlns.
  - Loquebantur 2mo ago
    The public narrative around conspiracy theories is baffling for sure: what rational basis is there for assuming them wrong? Often none. Incentive and ability are what should be looked at. There, things get far more interesting: what is the current state of AI employed by the US intelligence agencies and what do they use it for? Having the public convinced, their "superiors" would only do everything in their best interest, even without anybody knowing for sure, is Huxley's Brave New World in real life.
    - 2mo ago
imrozim 2mo ago
Worth checking, elsewhere in this thread someone points out glm only assessed the damage after the fact, it didn't stop the attack, and Hf apprently never sought access to a trusted defender program with a closed model either the open model saved them farming might not hold up.
- mafuy 2mo ago
  They wrote themselves that before the incident they were denied from the trust program...

rob74 2mo ago

I case you're wondering, HF = Hugging Face

markdown 2mo ago
[flagged]
- swiftcoder 2mo ago
  The biggest platform for the distribution of open-weight models
- rob74 2mo ago
  It's the machine learning platform that started with "developing a chatbot app targeted at teenagers" (according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugging_Face https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugging_Face), which helps explain the weird name (which still makes me think more of one of the development stages of the xenomorphs from Alien than of the emoji, but that's probably just me).
  - nyeah 2mo ago
    It's definitely not just you :)
    - smallmancontrov 2mo ago
      I have it bookmarked as just the emoji because whenever I write the text I still think about the alien spider.
- gertrunde 2mo ago
  For context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48997548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48997548
- tempfile 2mo ago
  Surely you can just google this.
- coldtea 2mo ago
  If you're not familiar with such overall big players, would anything help short of looking at some 101 first?
  - soblemprolver 2mo ago
    I am familiar, yet used this comment to confirm my initial assumption. Abbreviations carry unnecessary cost on the side of the readers. There is always the chance that there is another shorthand for something else that is important and so there is a need to double check interpretations. So thanks for the comment and no, a 101 wouldn't even help with this problem.
    - tough 2mo ago
      if you google "hf hack" the first result is OpenAI post-mortem official blog post so...
      - witrak 2mo ago
        Lol! Does it matter? Using an unclear acronym in the first reference to an object, besides adding energy waste (for the execution of unnecessary searches by users unfamiliar with the subject), may only give the author of the comment the thrill of "being well informed, an insider".
        bethekidyouwant 2mo ago
        Wtf is a coca-cola?
        Barbing 2mo ago
        Curse of knowledge. / Unsafe assumption. Some users feel IP address, ISP, and LLM are clear. Fewer of those users will also reference HF. I have had to stop myself and type out Hugging Face. HR perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
    - coldtea 2mo ago
littlecorner 2mo ago
Every time I read Hugging Face, my brain first jumps to facehugger from Alien. I really wish they chose a different name...
- tessellated 2mo ago
  Same here. The creature seems more fitting than the emoji too.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- rob74 2mo ago
  Actually I wrote something similar yesterday as a reply to the (since flagged) comment below. Glad to see that more people have this association. But apparently the founders of Hugging Face didn't have it, or else they probably would have chosen some other "friendly" emoji for their startup (which initially developed a chatbot for teenagers - that makes the choice of name feel even creepier if you ask me).

b112 2mo ago

I think the fair nuance here is, an administration which used Executive Orders to force guardrails, meaning US companies must retain them, even if they might want to drop them now. And on top of that, with low/no guardrails, people call you a child pornographer(grok), so the public is also against it. Yet mysteriously few complain about Chinese open models being child pornographers. So even if your goal isn't ethical, but just fiscal, it's reasonable to say there are two standards. And to complaint in some way. I don't think banning is going to work, that's just silly. And over the next few years, everyone and their dog will have local GPU compute to train locally. People have home labs, the bar isn't that high, and eventually large text datasets will escape from Anthropic and other companies, allowing for comparable training. It's a genie that's not going back in the bottle, the bottle is smashed. The only reasonable outcome would be section 230 style carveouts so that there is zero liability for anything a model does. Because having guardrails on corporate models barely months ahead of open ones, which will never be restricted, is entirely pointless.

wongarsu 2mo ago
The "child pornography" thing was about image generation, which people for better or worse have very different moral standards for than for text generation. There is very little pushback against grok being willing to write explicit descriptions of sex, or giving security advise. Though I think your overall point still stands, and at least Grok's twitter bot has received a lot of criticism for pure text too (Mecha hitler comes to mind)
- notahacker 2mo ago
  It also must be seen in the context that the open weight models aren't commercially associated with a popular distribution site where people share the images, the people behind them aren't public figures seen as encouraging the use of the model for "undressing" (albeit in a funny way not related to minors), and they haven't yet responded to questions about what can be produced using their tool by proposing guardrails but only for non-paying users... Open weight models get scrutinised in a different way, also linked to perceptions of their developers' bias, like the tests to see whether they refuse to answer questions on certain historical events at Tiananmen Square

ppap3 2mo ago

I'm very confident that it was staged and coordinated. This propaganda started because they cannot evolve their models further. See Fable and Sol, they are lame. They seem incredible at first but the more you use you can see the trickery. It is a matter of time for someone to prove they are marginally better only because they inject more information to the harness at server side.

jimmydoe 2mo ago
I’m also into this conspiracy theory: ai created bug, ai hacked it, ai fixed it.
- taude 2mo ago
  just like ai will create amazing tests suits for the broken code it writes, if one isn't carefully watching... EDIT: of course it probably helps to have an up front tdd test suite, but often isn't the case.
  - ppap3 2mo ago
    Live overflow released the video today about it. It is very compelling but I guess there are holes on their hypothesis as well. The summary is that an instance was running on certain benchmarks without any limits or supervision and the AI decided to cheat by exploiting a silly series of vunlns.
- Loquebantur 2mo ago
  The public narrative around conspiracy theories is baffling for sure: what rational basis is there for assuming them wrong? Often none. Incentive and ability are what should be looked at. There, things get far more interesting: what is the current state of AI employed by the US intelligence agencies and what do they use it for? Having the public convinced, their "superiors" would only do everything in their best interest, even without anybody knowing for sure, is Huxley's Brave New World in real life.
  - 2mo ago

imrozim 2mo ago

Worth checking, elsewhere in this thread someone points out glm only assessed the damage after the fact, it didn't stop the attack, and Hf apprently never sought access to a trusted defender program with a closed model either the open model saved them farming might not hold up.

mafuy 2mo ago
They wrote themselves that before the incident they were denied from the trust program...