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Try instructing Codex to (say) fine-tune a language model based on a collection of books you've got saved. You will find yourself admonished, repeatedly and at

Try instructing Codex to (say) fine-tune a language model based on a collection of books you've got saved. You will find yourself admonished, repeatedly and at length, not to utilize copyrighted materials to train language models, by an AI who owes its entire existence to that very act. These models might be smart but they're not close to being able to savor irony.

Onavo 2mo ago
This behavior is actually specific to ChatGPT because they lost a music copyright lawsuit in Germany. They would refuse to output music lyrics too but they would happily do analysis on lyrics if you supply them. I suspect there might be a guardrail model involved here.
- alexjplant 2mo ago
  Claude does this too. I asked it recently to compare two versions of a song (the original and '97 remake of EPMD's "You Gots To Chill", if anybody wants to try and replicate this) and it flatly refused. No amount of reasoning would knock it off of its moralizing perch - reproducing any part of lyrics is expressly prohibited. In light of this and other ridiculous behavior I'm migrating to my own OpenWebUI instance with open-weight models from OpenRouter (with ZDR, of course). We'll see how it goes.
- Hugsbox 2mo ago
  The trouble is, even if they refuse to output that copyrighted material, they were still trained on it without proper licensing and will still produce derivative work based on them because that's how this whole thing works.
  - The_Blade 2mo ago
    i remain really fucking pissed of about this asking ChatGPT for something regarding lyrics from It Was a Good Day. and the Supersonics don't even exist anymore dammit i'm really mad
- kshacker 2mo ago
  So at the end of it, if we win enough lawsuits to demarcate some knowledge out of bounds, sufficient enough to make a difference, I wonder how that will affect the AI. Make it dumber because it does not have that data, it make it smarter since it will need to reason better with smaller knowledge base.
  - twister2920 2mo ago
    [dead]
jbm 2mo ago
I was a little radicalized when ChatGPT literally refused to translate parts of 1000+ year old religious texts and told me it was due to copyright concerns.
- VeninVidiaVicii 2mo ago
  Yep. I was trying to put together some literature from authors who were imprisoned in the Bastille, and had a similar experience, which was absolutely infuriating.
- ralfd 2mo ago
  Cant you in this case point out that obviously it is an old twxt and there is no copyright?
  - twister2920 2mo ago
    [dead]
  - mananaysiempre 2mo ago
    I once tried to ask it for an example of a particular twisty situation in Latin grammar, and try what I might it kept hallucinating false citations while ignoring my instructions for longer quotes that would likely have prevented the problem. But I guess avoiding lawsuits from the estates of Cicero and Livy is more important.
    - jaggederest 2mo ago
      Really puts Disney in perspective. Imagine if there were a holding company running around suing people for referencing Catullus.
      - The_Blade 2mo ago
        ChatGPT refuses to acknowledge the existence of Shakespeare because Boccaccio's relatives complained, but all Boccaccio did was read Dante in whorehouses in Naples
bijowo1676 2mo ago
in case of chatgpt/anthropic, the LLM model simply represents the hypocrisy of their owners
- zer00eyz 2mo ago
  You miss spelled the word stupidity. Anthropic is, in particular, bent about safety. The problem is they are concerned about yesterday's threats. The models that are out, and can be run locally, already open a pandoras box of concerns that we will never be able to put back.
  - subarctic 2mo ago
    Maybe what they're actually worried about is liability, not safety?
    - zer00eyz 2mo ago
      https://tornyol.com https://tornyol.com - A ycombinator company just killed its first bug: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/drones/autonomous-micro-drone-achieves-first-air-to-air-insect-kill-on-the-way-towards-completely-eradicating-mosquitoes-40-gram-unit-uses-car-parking-sensors-can-eliminate-insects-at-up-to-26-feet https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/drones/autonomous... Ukraine admits to making autonomous kills on people 2 years ago: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2529849-fully-autonomous-drones-have-killed-human-soldiers-for-the-first-time/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2529849-fully-autonomou... Slaughterbots Sci Fi short was 6 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU Today this is buildable, many models will happily help you glue everything you need together to make swapping in a new version of YOLO to track humans viable. AI researches are out there worrying about the paper clip problem, about the singularity, about cyber security, about bio weapons, and drug manufacturing. None of them are thinking about forward looking threat actor models.
      - pessimizer 2mo ago
        I don't know what "forward looking threat actor models" means, but there are entire companies built around AI killing machines. Everybody is not only thinking about it, but doing it.
citizenpaul 2mo ago
I live in SV. When I was at the grocery store last year I overheard a group of lawyers talking about their progress on litigation against AI companies and how they need more SWE help to progress. I'd say that they have valid concerns about being cagey on the copyright stuff despite the obvious hypocrisy of it. Stealing IP is effectively legal in China so they don't really have the same concerns.
- htlemur_bobby 2mo ago
  To us Americans we have been trained to view it that way but honestly it is simply copying, and because intellectual property is literally a make believe concept, it’s actually a competitive advantage for china that they don’t have invented IP. I respect IP laws and don’t violate them but the law of unintended consequences applies. I think IP is ultimately a net loss for a society because it incentivizes addictive behaviors instead of actual value for society.
- spwa4 2mo ago
  Legal in the US too, obviously, just as long as you're the richest person in the courtroom. ChatGPT knows the full text of Harry Potter, word for word. Hence, ChatGPT is a reproduction of that book and many others (it even knows the chapters of my book, and only got 2 words wrong in the introduction if you can still get it to repro it) This was illegal when they did it, that didn't matter. Then it was made legal specifically for these companies. Unless you're a sucker ("consumer") IP theft is perfectly legal in the US. It's even worse. Steamboat willie, plus all the stolen Disney characters (Peter Pan, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Rapunzel, Elsa and Anna, it's essentially all of them, including some of the music even) are all in the public domain[1]. Go ahead, ask ChatGPT to make a picture of them. Publish your own version, because obviously making a version of Sleeping Beauty/Cinderella/Rapunzel based on the same source material will be pretty damn close to the Disney versions, and see if you get away with it in court. You know, with the law obviously on your side but the money not. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_animated_films_based_on_fairy_tales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_animated_films_...

Onavo 2mo ago

This behavior is actually specific to ChatGPT because they lost a music copyright lawsuit in Germany. They would refuse to output music lyrics too but they would happily do analysis on lyrics if you supply them. I suspect there might be a guardrail model involved here.

alexjplant 2mo ago
Claude does this too. I asked it recently to compare two versions of a song (the original and '97 remake of EPMD's "You Gots To Chill", if anybody wants to try and replicate this) and it flatly refused. No amount of reasoning would knock it off of its moralizing perch - reproducing any part of lyrics is expressly prohibited. In light of this and other ridiculous behavior I'm migrating to my own OpenWebUI instance with open-weight models from OpenRouter (with ZDR, of course). We'll see how it goes.
Hugsbox 2mo ago
The trouble is, even if they refuse to output that copyrighted material, they were still trained on it without proper licensing and will still produce derivative work based on them because that's how this whole thing works.
- The_Blade 2mo ago
  i remain really fucking pissed of about this asking ChatGPT for something regarding lyrics from It Was a Good Day. and the Supersonics don't even exist anymore dammit i'm really mad
kshacker 2mo ago
So at the end of it, if we win enough lawsuits to demarcate some knowledge out of bounds, sufficient enough to make a difference, I wonder how that will affect the AI. Make it dumber because it does not have that data, it make it smarter since it will need to reason better with smaller knowledge base.
- twister2920 2mo ago
  [dead]

jbm 2mo ago

I was a little radicalized when ChatGPT literally refused to translate parts of 1000+ year old religious texts and told me it was due to copyright concerns.

VeninVidiaVicii 2mo ago
Yep. I was trying to put together some literature from authors who were imprisoned in the Bastille, and had a similar experience, which was absolutely infuriating.
ralfd 2mo ago
Cant you in this case point out that obviously it is an old twxt and there is no copyright?
- twister2920 2mo ago
  [dead]
- mananaysiempre 2mo ago
  I once tried to ask it for an example of a particular twisty situation in Latin grammar, and try what I might it kept hallucinating false citations while ignoring my instructions for longer quotes that would likely have prevented the problem. But I guess avoiding lawsuits from the estates of Cicero and Livy is more important.
  - jaggederest 2mo ago
    Really puts Disney in perspective. Imagine if there were a holding company running around suing people for referencing Catullus.
    - The_Blade 2mo ago
      ChatGPT refuses to acknowledge the existence of Shakespeare because Boccaccio's relatives complained, but all Boccaccio did was read Dante in whorehouses in Naples

bijowo1676 2mo ago

in case of chatgpt/anthropic, the LLM model simply represents the hypocrisy of their owners

zer00eyz 2mo ago
You miss spelled the word stupidity. Anthropic is, in particular, bent about safety. The problem is they are concerned about yesterday's threats. The models that are out, and can be run locally, already open a pandoras box of concerns that we will never be able to put back.
- subarctic 2mo ago
  Maybe what they're actually worried about is liability, not safety?
  - zer00eyz 2mo ago
    https://tornyol.com https://tornyol.com - A ycombinator company just killed its first bug: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/drones/autonomous-micro-drone-achieves-first-air-to-air-insect-kill-on-the-way-towards-completely-eradicating-mosquitoes-40-gram-unit-uses-car-parking-sensors-can-eliminate-insects-at-up-to-26-feet https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/drones/autonomous... Ukraine admits to making autonomous kills on people 2 years ago: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2529849-fully-autonomous-drones-have-killed-human-soldiers-for-the-first-time/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2529849-fully-autonomou... Slaughterbots Sci Fi short was 6 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-2tpwW0kmU Today this is buildable, many models will happily help you glue everything you need together to make swapping in a new version of YOLO to track humans viable. AI researches are out there worrying about the paper clip problem, about the singularity, about cyber security, about bio weapons, and drug manufacturing. None of them are thinking about forward looking threat actor models.
    - pessimizer 2mo ago
      I don't know what "forward looking threat actor models" means, but there are entire companies built around AI killing machines. Everybody is not only thinking about it, but doing it.

citizenpaul 2mo ago

I live in SV. When I was at the grocery store last year I overheard a group of lawyers talking about their progress on litigation against AI companies and how they need more SWE help to progress. I'd say that they have valid concerns about being cagey on the copyright stuff despite the obvious hypocrisy of it. Stealing IP is effectively legal in China so they don't really have the same concerns.

htlemur_bobby 2mo ago
To us Americans we have been trained to view it that way but honestly it is simply copying, and because intellectual property is literally a make believe concept, it’s actually a competitive advantage for china that they don’t have invented IP. I respect IP laws and don’t violate them but the law of unintended consequences applies. I think IP is ultimately a net loss for a society because it incentivizes addictive behaviors instead of actual value for society.
spwa4 2mo ago
Legal in the US too, obviously, just as long as you're the richest person in the courtroom. ChatGPT knows the full text of Harry Potter, word for word. Hence, ChatGPT is a reproduction of that book and many others (it even knows the chapters of my book, and only got 2 words wrong in the introduction if you can still get it to repro it) This was illegal when they did it, that didn't matter. Then it was made legal specifically for these companies. Unless you're a sucker ("consumer") IP theft is perfectly legal in the US. It's even worse. Steamboat willie, plus all the stolen Disney characters (Peter Pan, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Rapunzel, Elsa and Anna, it's essentially all of them, including some of the music even) are all in the public domain[1]. Go ahead, ask ChatGPT to make a picture of them. Publish your own version, because obviously making a version of Sleeping Beauty/Cinderella/Rapunzel based on the same source material will be pretty damn close to the Disney versions, and see if you get away with it in court. You know, with the law obviously on your side but the money not. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_animated_films_based_on_fairy_tales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Disney_animated_films_...