7 ms·

why bother? japan hate EV

by yanhangyhy 2mo ago

jazzyjackson 2mo ago
Japan wants domestic industry and specializes in things other than battery production
- nextaccountic 2mo ago
  On another comment in this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902162 it is said > Toyota is still digging its heels in on gas-powered cars, even though the fact that Tesla used Japanese batteries in its early days proves Japan was once ahead of the curve.but they always seem to retreat right back into their comfort zone after a brief flash of brilliance, watching the rest of the world race ahead while they continue living in the past. Did Japan get behind on battery tech? Couldn't them make a priority to get an edge there too?
mc3301 2mo ago
I used to follow it closely and be in the industry, but it still seems like Japan is gonna be the last "mostly ICE cars" of the developed countries. Which is a shame, because it has a perfect combination of short-range needs (I mean, look at kei-cars), tons of wonderful places to hang out while charging (toll-way rest areas are so good), rare sub-freezing temperatures in most of the country, mandatory vehicle inspections (which could collect great safety data as well as preventative maintenance), general love of new cars and brand loyalty, lack of political or individual divide of "big gas trucks are manly", mobile-power-station earthquake preparedness (a nice bonus), generally cooperative nation-wide infrastructure... I guess we just have to hope the main automakers can hold on long enough for solid-state batteries and move faster than a snail's pace when it does.
- cammikebrown 2mo ago
  If you live in Tokyo or Osaka you really shouldn’t own a car
  - cyberax 2mo ago
    Hence nobody should live in Tokyo and Osaka.
  - zdragnar 2mo ago
    What about the parent comment implied Tokyo or Osaka residence?
  - klempner 2mo ago
    And one of the points that's a little more obvious living here: Japan is a remarkably car centric culture. Not quite to the extent of America, but in much of the country you really do need a car. If anything the main exceptions to that are exactly the places tourists are most likely to go.
    - happosai 2mo ago
      I disagree, I lived a year in a small town near Osaka far from any tourist attractions and never did I wish I had a car. Public transport was ubiquitous and walking infrastructure excellent. Lots of people on bikes. Roads were tiny so cars on them are tiny and driving slowly, making it feel safe to share the roads with them. Maybe the most clear indication that Japan isn't a car centric culture was the complete lack of FREE parking space.
      - tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
        Japan has 670 cars per 1,000 people, the US has 779. Not a huge gap.
        happosai 2mo ago
        Which shows that you can have lots of cars without having a cars-only culture. Freedom of choice of the mode of transport, and pay for privilege vs externalizing the costs of cars.
      - klempner 2mo ago
        So, yes, the extreme pedestrian hostility that is sometimes normal in the US isn't around, and there's more likely to be a viable transit system. That's especially the case if you're in the outskirts of a major metropolitan area where there are going to be commuters into the core transit network. Still, if I hop on an express train for an hour away from central Tokyo, every house has a car park and most significant stores have dedicated parking spaces, and I get a vibe of "suburbia with narrower streets". Heck, I get some of that even as close as Kawasaki or southern Tokyo once you're away from major train stations.
- inatreecrown2 2mo ago
  Isn't the reason they are so slow to adapt them that they have not enough electricity?
  - toomuchtodo 2mo ago
    Japanese automakers are excessively risk adverse. Last big risk by Toyota was their hybrid synergy drive, which they coasted on for too long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/toyota-perfected-hybrid-why-rivals-210000386.html https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/toyota-p... https://www.motor1.com/news/798173/toyota-chairman-reveals-worst-fear/ https://www.motor1.com/news/798173/toyota-chairman-reveals-w...
    - Loocid 2mo ago
      Which seems strange since Toyota are the origins of JiT manufacturing. I wonder what made Japan go through a period of incredible innovation and then just decide "ok, that's enough".
      - leonidasrup 2mo ago
        Japan still has not fully recovered from the asset price bubble's collapse beginning in 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades
- tyre 2mo ago
  In your opinion/experience, why is it that they aren't switching?
  - chubs 2mo ago
    I have a theory: Japanese car's have excellent reliability, their interiors and design are lacking. If every car in the world is an EV, which due to their relative simplicity tend to be reliable, what remaining unique selling points does eg a toyota have?
    - NegativeLatency 2mo ago
      I'd still prefer a more reliable EV to a less reliable one. Not too many good options for a EV minivan in the US (I'll never buy a Chrysler product, and I don't really want a VW).
    - protocolture 2mo ago
      I dunno I quite like hondas interiors. Toyota seem to be spartan intentionally. GWM has them both outflanked they just push comfortable interior as its easier than catching up on any of the other engineering. Teslas just feel like Jony Ive reinvented the car interior from an artistic design perspective with zero reference to the comfort of the passenger.
      - Danox 2mo ago
        The biggest errors Tesla has made is no LiDAR, and Interior door handles.
    - Danox 2mo ago
      Honda and Toyota are still much better cars than most of the EVs on the market and their reliability is still very good and so is the price. In comparison to Ford, GM, Tesla, Volkswagen and some of the other European brands. The Japanese made the right decision by not jumping on the EV bandwagon just to lose billions of dollars, very similar to Apple in comparison to their peers burning billions of dollars, chasing AI models. What is the point of going bankrupt burning Capex or decommissioning some parts of your industry like Germany. Another example I could give is that over the years some tech people have kept harping on Sony and Nintendo in the gaming industry, on how they should follow Microsoft down the road of making no profit when it comes to games But lo and behold, they make a profit in that area. One other footnote, China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan support, are very loyal to their local industries, i.e. car manufacturers and electronic industries. Which is one of the reasons why still Apple does well in Eastern Asia, because they are like neutral territory, the Japanese will buy Apple products, but won’t buy their nearest neighbors products, and same thing goes for China, Korea, and Taiwan when they have a choice, which is an interesting dynamic.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- cyberax 2mo ago
  Solid-state batteries are facing production hell now, with lots of issues cropping up when tested at large-scale in real devices. So they are not expected in meaningful quantities until the early 2030-s. And the LFP chemistry has now advanced so much that solid-state batteries might not even matter anymore, except for some niche uses like aviation/drones.
- xbmcuser 2mo ago
  Why cars though I think people are still stuck with the cars mindset. But with electric we can get smaller ebikes/pods for individuals instead of cars
  - adrianN 2mo ago
    We could have smaller transportation with combustion engines too, but the margins are lower and they cover fewer use cases, so marketing larger vehicles works really well.
- freetime2 2mo ago
  EV sales have doubled in Japan in the first half of 2026. [1] This has been spurred by some pretty large subsidies: > In January this year, the government raised the maximum subsidy for EVs by ¥400,000 to ¥1.3 million. While the maximum subsidy for minicar EVs remained unchanged at ¥580,000, many domestic models are receiving the full subsidy amount. > One EV model benefiting from this subsidy system is Honda Motor Co.’s compact Super-ONE, launched in late May. Originally priced at about ¥3.39 million, including tax, it can be purchased for ¥2.09 million — on par with minicar EVs — when the subsidy is applied. Demand has been overwhelming, with some dealerships temporarily suspending acceptance of orders. > The Tokyo metropolitan government raised its subsidy cap in July in response to rising crude oil prices caused by the deteriorating situation in the Middle East. Models from Toyota, Honda and Nissan, in principle, can receive subsidies of ¥900,000 or more per vehicle. If they keep up with these subsidies, I think we could see some pretty rapid adoption of EVs. Charging infrastructure still needs to improve, though. PHEVs are also eligible for subsidies, with the price of PHEVs being comparable to the cost of a HEV after subsidies. I think this can also help to get people used to the idea of driving EVs and charging at home. [1] https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/business/companies/20260707-336974/ https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/business/companies/20260707-...
chvid 2mo ago
It is curious - you would think they would love it? But they don't - is it simply the case of the Chinese beating them - stubbornness and pride? Or is there something more going on? Toyota was seemingly decades ahead at one point with their hybrid cars; but now they have resigned to a defensive position compared to Tesla, Chinese automakers, even the European ones.
- yanhangyhy 2mo ago
  > you would think they would love it? no. i just found it funny. > Or is there something more going on? I remember BYD actually had to design models specifically tailored to the Japanese market (k-car)—their preferences are honestly so bizarre. I think a lot of this comes down to their national character. Once external momentum fades—like the industrial transfers from the US—they seem to lose the drive for technological innovation. They just cling to whatever they already have and refuse to adapt to global shifts.People in Japan are still using Yahoo and fax machines（not to mention their own bizarrely proprietary text editors,Hidemaru/SAKURA editor, to compare, in china, it's also vscode）. Toyota is still digging its heels in on gas-powered cars, even though the fact that Tesla used Japanese batteries in its early days proves Japan was once ahead of the curve.but they always seem to retreat right back into their comfort zone after a brief flash of brilliance, watching the rest of the world race ahead while they continue living in the past.
  - hnav 2mo ago
    That's probably a good thing, the world needs appliance-like cars for markets where EV charging isn't there yet. Meanwhile Toyota is #1, moving millions of units, something like half of them are electrified in most markets. A 2026 Camry, for $30k, gives the buyer a low-TCO, value retaining, 50mpg, 230hp appliance of a car. That's a rarity.
  - protocolture 2mo ago
    >They just cling to whatever they already have and refuse to adapt to global shifts.People in Japan are still using Yahoo and fax machines（not to mention their own bizarrely proprietary text editors,Hidemaru/SAKURA editor, to compare, in china, it's also vscode）. James May suggests in his doco "The Peoples Car" that the US auto market was like this when Japan was recovering from WW2, giving them the edge. It wouldnt surprise me if after a few years of success that they also stagnate.
jeffbee 2mo ago
Every Tesla made in America contains 500 kilos of Japan's finest batteries. Honda may hate the EV but Panasonic does not.
- rootusrootus 2mo ago
  > Japan's finest batteries Aren’t all Teslas made in the US supplied with American made batteries? In partnership with Panasonic, for the Model 3, but still a Tesla factory in Nevada. And I think 4680s are all Tesla made, correct?
  - jeffbee 2mo ago
    No, they are all 100% made by Panasonic, with Panasonic technology, in buildings that Panasonic master-leases from Tesla. The only thing Tesla has contributed is the shell and the sign outside. Panasonic developed the 4680 form factor at Tesla's request, by the way that program has been a major failure.
    - JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
      > No, they are all 100% made by Panasonic, with Panasonic technology, in buildings that Panasonic master-leases from Tesla Gigafactory Nevada is jointly operated by Tesla and Panasonic [1]. That's in America. (No clue on the master lease bit. Would be curious for your source.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/panasonic-boost-battery-output-teslas-nevada-gigafactory-nikkei-2023-06-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/panaso...
      - mc3301 2mo ago
        Fun, somewhat related, fact. For a long time (not sure about now), the high-voltage connectors in Tesla were made by (but not labeled) Yazaki. Made in Japan. But the QC tests to Yazaki's deisred level didn't exist yet, and Tesla did their own tests. And Tesla was maximizing it's "Made in the US" stance, which either goes by weight or components. So Yazaki was secretly making unlabeled high-voltage connectors in Japan, selling them to Tesla, who could then test them themselves and claim falsely the source of production.

why bother? japan hate EV

jazzyjackson 2mo ago

Japan wants domestic industry and specializes in things other than battery production

nextaccountic 2mo ago
On another comment in this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902162 it is said > Toyota is still digging its heels in on gas-powered cars, even though the fact that Tesla used Japanese batteries in its early days proves Japan was once ahead of the curve.but they always seem to retreat right back into their comfort zone after a brief flash of brilliance, watching the rest of the world race ahead while they continue living in the past. Did Japan get behind on battery tech? Couldn't them make a priority to get an edge there too?

mc3301 2mo ago

I used to follow it closely and be in the industry, but it still seems like Japan is gonna be the last "mostly ICE cars" of the developed countries. Which is a shame, because it has a perfect combination of short-range needs (I mean, look at kei-cars), tons of wonderful places to hang out while charging (toll-way rest areas are so good), rare sub-freezing temperatures in most of the country, mandatory vehicle inspections (which could collect great safety data as well as preventative maintenance), general love of new cars and brand loyalty, lack of political or individual divide of "big gas trucks are manly", mobile-power-station earthquake preparedness (a nice bonus), generally cooperative nation-wide infrastructure... I guess we just have to hope the main automakers can hold on long enough for solid-state batteries and move faster than a snail's pace when it does.

cammikebrown 2mo ago
If you live in Tokyo or Osaka you really shouldn’t own a car
- cyberax 2mo ago
  Hence nobody should live in Tokyo and Osaka.
- zdragnar 2mo ago
  What about the parent comment implied Tokyo or Osaka residence?
- klempner 2mo ago
  And one of the points that's a little more obvious living here: Japan is a remarkably car centric culture. Not quite to the extent of America, but in much of the country you really do need a car. If anything the main exceptions to that are exactly the places tourists are most likely to go.
  - happosai 2mo ago
    I disagree, I lived a year in a small town near Osaka far from any tourist attractions and never did I wish I had a car. Public transport was ubiquitous and walking infrastructure excellent. Lots of people on bikes. Roads were tiny so cars on them are tiny and driving slowly, making it feel safe to share the roads with them. Maybe the most clear indication that Japan isn't a car centric culture was the complete lack of FREE parking space.
    - tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
      Japan has 670 cars per 1,000 people, the US has 779. Not a huge gap.
      - happosai 2mo ago
        Which shows that you can have lots of cars without having a cars-only culture. Freedom of choice of the mode of transport, and pay for privilege vs externalizing the costs of cars.
    - klempner 2mo ago
      So, yes, the extreme pedestrian hostility that is sometimes normal in the US isn't around, and there's more likely to be a viable transit system. That's especially the case if you're in the outskirts of a major metropolitan area where there are going to be commuters into the core transit network. Still, if I hop on an express train for an hour away from central Tokyo, every house has a car park and most significant stores have dedicated parking spaces, and I get a vibe of "suburbia with narrower streets". Heck, I get some of that even as close as Kawasaki or southern Tokyo once you're away from major train stations.
inatreecrown2 2mo ago
Isn't the reason they are so slow to adapt them that they have not enough electricity?
- toomuchtodo 2mo ago
  Japanese automakers are excessively risk adverse. Last big risk by Toyota was their hybrid synergy drive, which they coasted on for too long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/toyota-perfected-hybrid-why-rivals-210000386.html https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/toyota-p... https://www.motor1.com/news/798173/toyota-chairman-reveals-worst-fear/ https://www.motor1.com/news/798173/toyota-chairman-reveals-w...
  - Loocid 2mo ago
    Which seems strange since Toyota are the origins of JiT manufacturing. I wonder what made Japan go through a period of incredible innovation and then just decide "ok, that's enough".
    - leonidasrup 2mo ago
      Japan still has not fully recovered from the asset price bubble's collapse beginning in 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades
tyre 2mo ago
In your opinion/experience, why is it that they aren't switching?
- chubs 2mo ago
  I have a theory: Japanese car's have excellent reliability, their interiors and design are lacking. If every car in the world is an EV, which due to their relative simplicity tend to be reliable, what remaining unique selling points does eg a toyota have?
  - NegativeLatency 2mo ago
    I'd still prefer a more reliable EV to a less reliable one. Not too many good options for a EV minivan in the US (I'll never buy a Chrysler product, and I don't really want a VW).
  - protocolture 2mo ago
    I dunno I quite like hondas interiors. Toyota seem to be spartan intentionally. GWM has them both outflanked they just push comfortable interior as its easier than catching up on any of the other engineering. Teslas just feel like Jony Ive reinvented the car interior from an artistic design perspective with zero reference to the comfort of the passenger.
    - Danox 2mo ago
      The biggest errors Tesla has made is no LiDAR, and Interior door handles.
  - Danox 2mo ago
    Honda and Toyota are still much better cars than most of the EVs on the market and their reliability is still very good and so is the price. In comparison to Ford, GM, Tesla, Volkswagen and some of the other European brands. The Japanese made the right decision by not jumping on the EV bandwagon just to lose billions of dollars, very similar to Apple in comparison to their peers burning billions of dollars, chasing AI models. What is the point of going bankrupt burning Capex or decommissioning some parts of your industry like Germany. Another example I could give is that over the years some tech people have kept harping on Sony and Nintendo in the gaming industry, on how they should follow Microsoft down the road of making no profit when it comes to games But lo and behold, they make a profit in that area. One other footnote, China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan support, are very loyal to their local industries, i.e. car manufacturers and electronic industries. Which is one of the reasons why still Apple does well in Eastern Asia, because they are like neutral territory, the Japanese will buy Apple products, but won’t buy their nearest neighbors products, and same thing goes for China, Korea, and Taiwan when they have a choice, which is an interesting dynamic.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
cyberax 2mo ago
Solid-state batteries are facing production hell now, with lots of issues cropping up when tested at large-scale in real devices. So they are not expected in meaningful quantities until the early 2030-s. And the LFP chemistry has now advanced so much that solid-state batteries might not even matter anymore, except for some niche uses like aviation/drones.
xbmcuser 2mo ago
Why cars though I think people are still stuck with the cars mindset. But with electric we can get smaller ebikes/pods for individuals instead of cars
- adrianN 2mo ago
  We could have smaller transportation with combustion engines too, but the margins are lower and they cover fewer use cases, so marketing larger vehicles works really well.
freetime2 2mo ago
EV sales have doubled in Japan in the first half of 2026. [1] This has been spurred by some pretty large subsidies: > In January this year, the government raised the maximum subsidy for EVs by ¥400,000 to ¥1.3 million. While the maximum subsidy for minicar EVs remained unchanged at ¥580,000, many domestic models are receiving the full subsidy amount. > One EV model benefiting from this subsidy system is Honda Motor Co.’s compact Super-ONE, launched in late May. Originally priced at about ¥3.39 million, including tax, it can be purchased for ¥2.09 million — on par with minicar EVs — when the subsidy is applied. Demand has been overwhelming, with some dealerships temporarily suspending acceptance of orders. > The Tokyo metropolitan government raised its subsidy cap in July in response to rising crude oil prices caused by the deteriorating situation in the Middle East. Models from Toyota, Honda and Nissan, in principle, can receive subsidies of ¥900,000 or more per vehicle. If they keep up with these subsidies, I think we could see some pretty rapid adoption of EVs. Charging infrastructure still needs to improve, though. PHEVs are also eligible for subsidies, with the price of PHEVs being comparable to the cost of a HEV after subsidies. I think this can also help to get people used to the idea of driving EVs and charging at home. [1] https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/business/companies/20260707-336974/ https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/business/companies/20260707-...

chvid 2mo ago

It is curious - you would think they would love it? But they don't - is it simply the case of the Chinese beating them - stubbornness and pride? Or is there something more going on? Toyota was seemingly decades ahead at one point with their hybrid cars; but now they have resigned to a defensive position compared to Tesla, Chinese automakers, even the European ones.

yanhangyhy 2mo ago
> you would think they would love it? no. i just found it funny. > Or is there something more going on? I remember BYD actually had to design models specifically tailored to the Japanese market (k-car)—their preferences are honestly so bizarre. I think a lot of this comes down to their national character. Once external momentum fades—like the industrial transfers from the US—they seem to lose the drive for technological innovation. They just cling to whatever they already have and refuse to adapt to global shifts.People in Japan are still using Yahoo and fax machines（not to mention their own bizarrely proprietary text editors,Hidemaru/SAKURA editor, to compare, in china, it's also vscode）. Toyota is still digging its heels in on gas-powered cars, even though the fact that Tesla used Japanese batteries in its early days proves Japan was once ahead of the curve.but they always seem to retreat right back into their comfort zone after a brief flash of brilliance, watching the rest of the world race ahead while they continue living in the past.
- hnav 2mo ago
  That's probably a good thing, the world needs appliance-like cars for markets where EV charging isn't there yet. Meanwhile Toyota is #1, moving millions of units, something like half of them are electrified in most markets. A 2026 Camry, for $30k, gives the buyer a low-TCO, value retaining, 50mpg, 230hp appliance of a car. That's a rarity.
- protocolture 2mo ago
  >They just cling to whatever they already have and refuse to adapt to global shifts.People in Japan are still using Yahoo and fax machines（not to mention their own bizarrely proprietary text editors,Hidemaru/SAKURA editor, to compare, in china, it's also vscode）. James May suggests in his doco "The Peoples Car" that the US auto market was like this when Japan was recovering from WW2, giving them the edge. It wouldnt surprise me if after a few years of success that they also stagnate.

jeffbee 2mo ago

Every Tesla made in America contains 500 kilos of Japan's finest batteries. Honda may hate the EV but Panasonic does not.

rootusrootus 2mo ago
> Japan's finest batteries Aren’t all Teslas made in the US supplied with American made batteries? In partnership with Panasonic, for the Model 3, but still a Tesla factory in Nevada. And I think 4680s are all Tesla made, correct?
- jeffbee 2mo ago
  No, they are all 100% made by Panasonic, with Panasonic technology, in buildings that Panasonic master-leases from Tesla. The only thing Tesla has contributed is the shell and the sign outside. Panasonic developed the 4680 form factor at Tesla's request, by the way that program has been a major failure.
  - JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
    > No, they are all 100% made by Panasonic, with Panasonic technology, in buildings that Panasonic master-leases from Tesla Gigafactory Nevada is jointly operated by Tesla and Panasonic [1]. That's in America. (No clue on the master lease bit. Would be curious for your source.) [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/panasonic-boost-battery-output-teslas-nevada-gigafactory-nikkei-2023-06-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/panaso...
    - mc3301 2mo ago
      Fun, somewhat related, fact. For a long time (not sure about now), the high-voltage connectors in Tesla were made by (but not labeled) Yazaki. Made in Japan. But the QC tests to Yazaki's deisred level didn't exist yet, and Tesla did their own tests. And Tesla was maximizing it's "Made in the US" stance, which either goes by weight or components. So Yazaki was secretly making unlabeled high-voltage connectors in Japan, selling them to Tesla, who could then test them themselves and claim falsely the source of production.