6 ms·

So 112 MEPs didn't do their job...got it.

by GiorgioG 2mo ago

rowanG077 2mo ago
Politicians can take vacations. Many things went wrong here but this ain't it.
- Romanulus 2mo ago
  [dead]
- mflaherty22 2mo ago
  Very reductionist comment- if you're an elected representative and you leave early to take a vacation knowing you'll be missing votes, you're not doing your job..
  - joe_mamba 2mo ago
    This. When I need to take my summer vacation, I need to request it to my manager in due time so the team can plan customer deliveries accordingly, and in my last day before leaving I need to do a handover of my open tasks to whoever will do the work in my absence. I can't just spontaneously decide one day that tomorrow I'm leaving for 2-4 weeks on vacation with no notice and no handover to my team. What's stopping MEPs from having to do that? Do they have literally zero responsibilities and accountabilities? Because their job is pretty critical for our society an security, even if a trained monkey could do it in theory.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - quantum_magpie 2mo ago
      Oh, so it's also your fault when you plan, and get approved a vacation, and then in the middle of it (lets's say on week 2 out of 4) you're notified that in two days you must be in the office, or, according to you, you should get canned?
      - hunter-gatherer 2mo ago
        I don't know... I'm not European so I don't really care, but I feel like there are some jobs that have an existing overlap of _duty_. I was in the military, and PTO was viewed as a privilege, and sometimes leave was cancelled, but that makes sense because of the position. Other civilian jobs, like firefighters, police, maybe some medical practitioners, might have this same thing. Politicians I would say is definitely one of those positions, where you should actually be in "public service". Officials in a democracy are supposed to be elected not because we need people to fill vacant jobs, but because we need people to be on duty to make the hard decisions. Basically, I don't think politicians should be held to the same standard as some SWE making note-taking apps.
        blackqueeriroh 2mo ago
        This is a deeply American (and Puritan) view of work, and I can say that as an American who works in public service. PTO is not a “privilege.” In fact, it is a documented right as part of the employment agreement your company makes you, when you sign that document about the handbook. It should be a legal agreement, but somehow we’ve convinced people their purpose in life is to work for 50-60 years for 40+ hours a week and then have maybe 20 years to enjoy life before they die, happy to be of service to the people. Public servants deserve MORE time off and MORE money because they literally are ON CALL most of the time. Taking a vacation should be MORE Normal and votes shouldn’t require people to be in person. You build your government the way you build your country - you should show the utmost respect for those in public service by treating them right and respecting their time.
        hunter-gatherer 2mo ago
        I didn't say it was a privilege. I said it was viewed as such when I was in the military. I wasn't talking about work agreements with civil companies. You brought that in. My comment was in regards to public service only. I don't disagree about public servants having more time off or more money. But I believe they should be on call. If that means cancelling vacation to vote, so be it. You don't want to have that life style? Don't run for public office. FWIW, I've had skin in that game. I was stop lossed when I had 4 months left on my enlistment for a 15 month combat deployment. That's public service. Elected officials should be present and ready to serve.
    - NikolaNovak 2mo ago
      It is my limited understanding this is other way around - you plan your vacation, you get it approved, then on your vacation an emergency vote to reduce your salary is called and you automatically voted yes.
    - win311fwg 2mo ago
      > I can't just spontaneously decide one day [...] Sure you can. What unstoppable force is going to prevent you? You might find out there are undesirable consequences if you make that choice, but that is only if the employer decides to bring undesirable consequences. MEP employers in particular are generally apathetic about having an employee on staff. Extremely so — to the point that they won't even take a minute out of multiple years to say "hi" to the person they hired, never mind give any direction to the employee. It doesn't have to be that way, but when the employer doesn't care, that is the way it will be.
  - JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
    > knowing you'll be missing votes, you're not doing your job If you knowingly miss a vote, that’s part of the job. If your OOO gets played, that’s fucking up.
  - rowanG077 2mo ago
    They did not know this, this was an emergency vote literally injected two days ago.
  - mvdtnz 2mo ago
    Ever worked with Europeans? This is how they treat work. In their culture taking vacation and actually switching off is part of the job. I'm not making a value judgement but their approach to work is very different to what some of us are used to.
    - mikestorrent 2mo ago
      So they should prorogue the entire Parliament and they all take a month off together. Why the fuck should some particular province or riding or whatever miss out on representation on an important issue just because their rep is out for a week on an island somewhere? Could they not have a proxy / surrogate??
      - throw_await 2mo ago
        They are already doing that. There is an official summer break until September 02.
    - znort_ 2mo ago
      taking vacation and switching off is actually the sane thing for a person to do. the problem is that there is no provision for your post being covered while on vacation, and it's a problem in the enterprise/organization. imo that a representative of the people misses a vote should just not be acceptable under any circumstances. that's of course if we had to take "democracy" as an actually meaningful representation of the people. this was a cheap political maneuver to get a bill passed. happens everywhere. they would have gotten the bill through by any other means anyway. that would be in an ideal democracy, though, in reality european parlamentarians don't even draft laws, they are only able to sign off on laws drafted by shady appointees of an equally shady and largely unelected (by the people) comission, take it or leave it. that, photo ops and declarations is their whole job, it shouldn't be too complicated to have a fucking substitute when on vacation.
      - andsoitis 2mo ago
        I don’t consider these politicians typical employees. Do you think CEOs take vacation where they cannot be reached? If it does happen, it is a very rare exception.
  - tedggh 2mo ago
    Perhaps there should not be a vote while so many representatives are absent, unless it’s about a truly critical issue, like war.
- alberto467 2mo ago
  Exactly. The issue is them being automatically in favor, that’s a really extreme measure I as an eu citizen did not know about, even though I’d say I’m probably more informed then the average and was made to study eu history, structure and laws in school. That kind of stuff is really weird, even weirder is that such an emergency measure can be activated without countries being in active war or the like.
  - joe_mamba 2mo ago
    >That kind of stuff is really weird, even weirder is that such an emergency measure can be activated without countries being in active war or the like. What's also just as weird is how the EU can just straight up sanction, debank and make European citizens virtually homeless overnight, without even a trial day in court. Absolutely insane. This is some NAZI/USSR shit, except you don't get executed, you just get deranked and made homeless and maybe die from that on the whims of some bureaucrat in another country. We gave the EU superpowers to "protect us" but never asked ourselves what happens when they use those powers against us when people vocally don't agree with their agenda.
    - buellerbueller 2mo ago
      [flagged]
      - joe_mamba 2mo ago
        Jacques Baud (Swiss) and Xavier Moreau (French) citizens, got sanctioned by the EU[1] on the basis of "acting as mouthpieces for pro-Russian propaganda and spreading conspiracy theories". Sanctioning means asset freezes, debanking and travel bans, virtually a slow and painful sentence to homelessness and death since you won't be able to travel, have a bank account, a job, own or rent anything under sanctions. I don't have a problem with them sanctioning people, I have a problem when it's not done by a judge but a snap decision done by bureaucrats without a public trial/hearing where the individuals get a chance to defend themselves for what they're accused of, especially when it's just for the act of speaking, even if we disagree with what they speak. Because otherwise the EU is no different than a monarchic or totalitarian dictatorship who has people executed for speaking bad things against it, and there's nothing stopping them from doing the same to you, me and everyone else here for wrong speak against the crown's interests. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L_202502568 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L...
- paulddraper 2mo ago
  What is the out of session time for?
  - gmueckl 2mo ago
    For doing actual work? Getting in touch with constituents, listening to them, faction internal coordination, working on committee specific stuff, understanding proposals and motions of others, maybe filing their own... when taken seriously, this can be an intense job.
    - paulddraper 2mo ago
      Most of that list is done in session. This was just everyone leaving on a Friday, sort of a work day, sort of not.
- bdelmas 2mo ago
  Or exactly as planned.
- rendaw 2mo ago
  This is an absurdly bad take. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/9/plenary-sessions https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/9/plenary-session... > Plenary sessions of Parliament take place 12 times per year in Strasbourg and last four days There are 48 days in sessions over a year. You're saying that it's too much to ask MEPs not to take holidays during those 48 days? Am I missing something here?
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - gmueckl 2mo ago
    Most of the work of an MP is not sitting in plenary sessions looking bored. The normally important bits are in-between - committee and office work. This specific event here is an example of a plenary session suddenly being made extremely important by a procedural trick.
    - xienze 2mo ago
      But it _was_ a plenary session, was it not? One of only 48? That someone could easily avoid scheduling a vacation during?
  - rowanG077 2mo ago
    Do you those 48 days are the total number of working hours these MEPs have? Of course not. Something always needs to give when going on vacation. And usually missing a a plenary session is not weird or the end of the world. The problem here is that in this case the rules were abused.
- Towaway69 2mo ago
  The idea behind _representative_ democracy is that _we_ take holidays and our representatives do the work of upholding _our_ democratic values. These MEPs took their holidays before the parliamentary session was complete. If we're talking about _direct_ democracy then we have to do the work ourselves but because we don't want to do that (because we want to go on holydays), we give up our rights to those who _want_ to represent us. That, of course, falls apart once those representing us start to only represent themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)#Book_III https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)#Book_III

So 112 MEPs didn't do their job...got it.

rowanG077 2mo ago

Politicians can take vacations. Many things went wrong here but this ain't it.

Romanulus 2mo ago
[dead]
mflaherty22 2mo ago
Very reductionist comment- if you're an elected representative and you leave early to take a vacation knowing you'll be missing votes, you're not doing your job..
- joe_mamba 2mo ago
  This. When I need to take my summer vacation, I need to request it to my manager in due time so the team can plan customer deliveries accordingly, and in my last day before leaving I need to do a handover of my open tasks to whoever will do the work in my absence. I can't just spontaneously decide one day that tomorrow I'm leaving for 2-4 weeks on vacation with no notice and no handover to my team. What's stopping MEPs from having to do that? Do they have literally zero responsibilities and accountabilities? Because their job is pretty critical for our society an security, even if a trained monkey could do it in theory.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - quantum_magpie 2mo ago
    Oh, so it's also your fault when you plan, and get approved a vacation, and then in the middle of it (lets's say on week 2 out of 4) you're notified that in two days you must be in the office, or, according to you, you should get canned?
    - hunter-gatherer 2mo ago
      I don't know... I'm not European so I don't really care, but I feel like there are some jobs that have an existing overlap of _duty_. I was in the military, and PTO was viewed as a privilege, and sometimes leave was cancelled, but that makes sense because of the position. Other civilian jobs, like firefighters, police, maybe some medical practitioners, might have this same thing. Politicians I would say is definitely one of those positions, where you should actually be in "public service". Officials in a democracy are supposed to be elected not because we need people to fill vacant jobs, but because we need people to be on duty to make the hard decisions. Basically, I don't think politicians should be held to the same standard as some SWE making note-taking apps.
      - blackqueeriroh 2mo ago
        This is a deeply American (and Puritan) view of work, and I can say that as an American who works in public service. PTO is not a “privilege.” In fact, it is a documented right as part of the employment agreement your company makes you, when you sign that document about the handbook. It should be a legal agreement, but somehow we’ve convinced people their purpose in life is to work for 50-60 years for 40+ hours a week and then have maybe 20 years to enjoy life before they die, happy to be of service to the people. Public servants deserve MORE time off and MORE money because they literally are ON CALL most of the time. Taking a vacation should be MORE Normal and votes shouldn’t require people to be in person. You build your government the way you build your country - you should show the utmost respect for those in public service by treating them right and respecting their time.
        hunter-gatherer 2mo ago
        I didn't say it was a privilege. I said it was viewed as such when I was in the military. I wasn't talking about work agreements with civil companies. You brought that in. My comment was in regards to public service only. I don't disagree about public servants having more time off or more money. But I believe they should be on call. If that means cancelling vacation to vote, so be it. You don't want to have that life style? Don't run for public office. FWIW, I've had skin in that game. I was stop lossed when I had 4 months left on my enlistment for a 15 month combat deployment. That's public service. Elected officials should be present and ready to serve.
  - NikolaNovak 2mo ago
    It is my limited understanding this is other way around - you plan your vacation, you get it approved, then on your vacation an emergency vote to reduce your salary is called and you automatically voted yes.
  - win311fwg 2mo ago
    > I can't just spontaneously decide one day [...] Sure you can. What unstoppable force is going to prevent you? You might find out there are undesirable consequences if you make that choice, but that is only if the employer decides to bring undesirable consequences. MEP employers in particular are generally apathetic about having an employee on staff. Extremely so — to the point that they won't even take a minute out of multiple years to say "hi" to the person they hired, never mind give any direction to the employee. It doesn't have to be that way, but when the employer doesn't care, that is the way it will be.
- JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
  > knowing you'll be missing votes, you're not doing your job If you knowingly miss a vote, that’s part of the job. If your OOO gets played, that’s fucking up.
- rowanG077 2mo ago
  They did not know this, this was an emergency vote literally injected two days ago.
- mvdtnz 2mo ago
  Ever worked with Europeans? This is how they treat work. In their culture taking vacation and actually switching off is part of the job. I'm not making a value judgement but their approach to work is very different to what some of us are used to.
  - mikestorrent 2mo ago
    So they should prorogue the entire Parliament and they all take a month off together. Why the fuck should some particular province or riding or whatever miss out on representation on an important issue just because their rep is out for a week on an island somewhere? Could they not have a proxy / surrogate??
    - throw_await 2mo ago
      They are already doing that. There is an official summer break until September 02.
  - znort_ 2mo ago
    taking vacation and switching off is actually the sane thing for a person to do. the problem is that there is no provision for your post being covered while on vacation, and it's a problem in the enterprise/organization. imo that a representative of the people misses a vote should just not be acceptable under any circumstances. that's of course if we had to take "democracy" as an actually meaningful representation of the people. this was a cheap political maneuver to get a bill passed. happens everywhere. they would have gotten the bill through by any other means anyway. that would be in an ideal democracy, though, in reality european parlamentarians don't even draft laws, they are only able to sign off on laws drafted by shady appointees of an equally shady and largely unelected (by the people) comission, take it or leave it. that, photo ops and declarations is their whole job, it shouldn't be too complicated to have a fucking substitute when on vacation.
    - andsoitis 2mo ago
      I don’t consider these politicians typical employees. Do you think CEOs take vacation where they cannot be reached? If it does happen, it is a very rare exception.
- tedggh 2mo ago
  Perhaps there should not be a vote while so many representatives are absent, unless it’s about a truly critical issue, like war.
alberto467 2mo ago
Exactly. The issue is them being automatically in favor, that’s a really extreme measure I as an eu citizen did not know about, even though I’d say I’m probably more informed then the average and was made to study eu history, structure and laws in school. That kind of stuff is really weird, even weirder is that such an emergency measure can be activated without countries being in active war or the like.
- joe_mamba 2mo ago
  >That kind of stuff is really weird, even weirder is that such an emergency measure can be activated without countries being in active war or the like. What's also just as weird is how the EU can just straight up sanction, debank and make European citizens virtually homeless overnight, without even a trial day in court. Absolutely insane. This is some NAZI/USSR shit, except you don't get executed, you just get deranked and made homeless and maybe die from that on the whims of some bureaucrat in another country. We gave the EU superpowers to "protect us" but never asked ourselves what happens when they use those powers against us when people vocally don't agree with their agenda.
  - buellerbueller 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - joe_mamba 2mo ago
      Jacques Baud (Swiss) and Xavier Moreau (French) citizens, got sanctioned by the EU[1] on the basis of "acting as mouthpieces for pro-Russian propaganda and spreading conspiracy theories". Sanctioning means asset freezes, debanking and travel bans, virtually a slow and painful sentence to homelessness and death since you won't be able to travel, have a bank account, a job, own or rent anything under sanctions. I don't have a problem with them sanctioning people, I have a problem when it's not done by a judge but a snap decision done by bureaucrats without a public trial/hearing where the individuals get a chance to defend themselves for what they're accused of, especially when it's just for the act of speaking, even if we disagree with what they speak. Because otherwise the EU is no different than a monarchic or totalitarian dictatorship who has people executed for speaking bad things against it, and there's nothing stopping them from doing the same to you, me and everyone else here for wrong speak against the crown's interests. [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L_202502568 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L...
paulddraper 2mo ago
What is the out of session time for?
- gmueckl 2mo ago
  For doing actual work? Getting in touch with constituents, listening to them, faction internal coordination, working on committee specific stuff, understanding proposals and motions of others, maybe filing their own... when taken seriously, this can be an intense job.
  - paulddraper 2mo ago
    Most of that list is done in session. This was just everyone leaving on a Friday, sort of a work day, sort of not.
bdelmas 2mo ago
Or exactly as planned.
rendaw 2mo ago
This is an absurdly bad take. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/9/plenary-sessions https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/9/plenary-session... > Plenary sessions of Parliament take place 12 times per year in Strasbourg and last four days There are 48 days in sessions over a year. You're saying that it's too much to ask MEPs not to take holidays during those 48 days? Am I missing something here?
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- gmueckl 2mo ago
  Most of the work of an MP is not sitting in plenary sessions looking bored. The normally important bits are in-between - committee and office work. This specific event here is an example of a plenary session suddenly being made extremely important by a procedural trick.
  - xienze 2mo ago
    But it _was_ a plenary session, was it not? One of only 48? That someone could easily avoid scheduling a vacation during?
- rowanG077 2mo ago
  Do you those 48 days are the total number of working hours these MEPs have? Of course not. Something always needs to give when going on vacation. And usually missing a a plenary session is not weird or the end of the world. The problem here is that in this case the rules were abused.
Towaway69 2mo ago
The idea behind _representative_ democracy is that _we_ take holidays and our representatives do the work of upholding _our_ democratic values. These MEPs took their holidays before the parliamentary session was complete. If we're talking about _direct_ democracy then we have to do the work ourselves but because we don't want to do that (because we want to go on holydays), we give up our rights to those who _want_ to represent us. That, of course, falls apart once those representing us start to only represent themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)#Book_III https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_(Aristotle)#Book_III