7 ms·

How is it unprofessional when it is simply someone giving their honest personal opinion on an issue that involves something that is valuable to them, on their p

by 0xpgm 2mo ago

How is it unprofessional when it is simply someone giving their honest personal opinion on an issue that involves something that is valuable to them, on their personal blog nonetheless. Is everyone a walking and talking brand now so that they have to always filter their words, walk on eggshells, hide behind corpo-speak so as to seem 'professional'? More honest discourse is required in today's world, not less. It seems interactions online are becoming less and less authentic.

neutronicus 2mo ago
[flagged]
- swiftcoder 2mo ago
  Nah, corpo-speak is the original slop. The result of too many comms/legal inputs to a conversation. Professional communication is direct, clear, and ideally courteous (but only to a point).
  - dom96 2mo ago
    Calling someone’s code “slop” surely isn’t professional nor courteous.
    - melodyogonna 2mo ago
      Well, I can't think of other people more qualified to know when a Zig code is slop.
    - neutronicus 2mo ago
      Nor is polemic against financiers.
    - grayhatter 2mo ago
      it is. If I call your code slop, I'm being professional and courteous. The truth doesn't have a ethical value. Me calling your code slop might feel disrespectful, but it's less disrespectful than trying to pass slop off for your coworkers (or users) to use and deal with. Lying to someone, and allowing someone who's supposedly your friend to ship slop is more disrespectful. If I wrote shitty code, and my friend didn't stop me, and I find out later he knew it was shitty code... that would be very hard on our friendship. Unless you meant it's a lie to call it slop code. A lie would be disrespectful, but then again, we both know you didn't say that because it's not a lie.
      - dom96 2mo ago
        Calling something "slop" is dismissive, vague and not constructive. That's why it's not professional. If you want to tell someone their code quality is poor, then you better do so with specific things that is poor so that the person you are telling it to can learn and do better.
        grayhatter 2mo ago
        > If you want to tell someone their code quality is poor, then you better do so with specific things that is poor so that the person you are telling it to can learn and do better. You and I must have had very different interactions with the types of people who happily emit slop. For the people I've met who've suggested slop; they don't care about quality, and it has exclusively been a waste of time trying to explain why quality is important. Calling someone's work slop, if they're willing to engage, might be disrespectful, I agree! But calling someone code/commit slop when they don't give a shit about the quality of their code (as evidenced by the commits they're willing to put their name on) is simply a description of reality. Willingness to engage is shockingly important. I can't think of a more vague response than answering "I don't know why the code is like that, the LLM did it". I'd also like to assert: giving out slop to other people is more disrespectful, and less professional (professionals don't suggest low quality options). I'm much rather you try to insult my code, than waste my time trying to trick me into accepting low quality work. And then, speaking personally. I would feel the most disrespected, if you were willing to call my code slop when speaking privately. But wouldn't call it slop to me, or publicly. It's not disrespectful to have a candid conversation; even if it's uncomfortable because someone has different and strong opinions than I do. I'm a big boy, I'm able to handle the honest evaluation of my work from another person without it being instantly being disrespectful to me, just because they used a word I didn't like. If they were lying, that would be disrespectful.
        dom96 2mo ago
        Well, the creator of Bun is certainly someone that deserves professionalism. But even random people you get on GitHub sending you PRs. You shouldn't reject them with "this code is slop". At least say "Cannot accept this. The code quality isn't great" or something to that effect. But the point is: dismissing real people who are doing real work and spending a lot of effort on something with "that's slop" is very unprofessional. You are just coming up with scenarios that don't really apply to what happened in this blog post.
  - neutronicus 2mo ago
    What is managing legal and PR risk if not professional?
    - swiftcoder 2mo ago
      corporate != professional. Plenty of professionals who do not work in those highly risk-averse corporate roles What's the actual risk here? I guess he could sue Andrew for slander, and then prove in court that his management style doesn't suck, and his code is not slop...
      - neutronicus 2mo ago
        The risk here is that a deep-pocketed entity elects to forgo funding Zig development because they don’t want to sign up for this level of dirty laundry airing if things go poorly.
      - reinitctxoffset 2mo ago
        Professionals worry, stay late at the office, and work hard. They care a great deal about the outcome, they care a great deal about the craft, they are fanatical about their responsibilities. They tend to be willing to increase their accountability faster than their compensation. They sometimes argue, use profanity, or otherwise communicate emphatically, that is the register of communication when something critical is on the line. The best computer hackers and other technologists through the years were very often outspoken, plain spoken, and did not suffer fools gladly. In their own way everyone from Djiksta to Jobs to Gabriel to Carmack to Linus to Nagggum to jwz to Hotz, too many to count. It's the same in law offices, hospitals, and forward operating bases in any military that ever won a war. It's the same on a construction site or in Mission Control in Houston. This venomous pretense of decorum performed by people who ruthlessly optimize to minimize their accountability while maximizing their compensation subject to no scruples. That's not being professional that's being a leisure suit con man. It is en vogue at the moment precisely because we are in an extreme low integrity regime.
- tel 2mo ago
  It's also a language of distancing from personal experience and honesty. Not saying you're wrong. Professionalism is an important tool for maintaining professional relationships. Lack of professionalism is dangerous to the point where it is reasonable for certain kinds of societies to begin to shun people who don't engage with it. And, at the same time, a certain amount of emotional honesty can be really important to share, too. And that includes some amount of judgement and criticism. It sounds like Zig's relationship with Bun is over. While Anthropic/Jason/Bun did not write a personal narrative about the end of that relationship, they absolutely were the initiators and could not have done this in a more aggressive way. It feels to me to be approximately the equivalent of moving out in secret and serving the divorce documents through your lawyer.
  - newaccountman2 2mo ago
    1) If he wants to rant in an emotionally honest way, he can, but other people are free to prefer professionalism and call him out. 2) > It sounds like Zig's relationship with Bun is over. While Anthropic/Jason/Bun did not write a personal narrative about the end of that relationship, they absolutely were the initiators and could not have done this in a more aggressive way. It feels to me to be approximately the equivalent of moving out in secret and serving the divorce documents through your lawyer. What a bizarre framing of the relationship between a software library and the language it's written in. Why would you even liken it to a marriage lolwtf
ModernMech 2mo ago
> Those people talked to each other. Everybody talked to everybody. The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. There’s a big gap between corpo speak and “stinky manager”. That’s nowhere close to professional writing. And he’s not giving us his personal opinion, Kelley is telling us the conclusion of the “grape vine” - he’s reporting on rumors and gossip, and agreeing with it.
- 27183 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - orangedog 2mo ago
    He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project.
    - 27183 2mo ago
      > He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project. What? So let me get this straight--if my open source project which I have given away for free becomes "major" (for some definition) then all of a sudden I have to filter my writing through some kind of average acceptableness test? Come on. [edit] It would be one thing if this was published on Zig letterhead, but it was the guy's personal blog...
      - orangedog 2mo ago
        You have to if you give a shit about the community you are leading, yes. You're not operating as a private figure in that role, everything you do affects the community and it is blind or selfish to act otherwise.
        27183 2mo ago
        This is so deeply wrong. This person owes you nothing. You're accusing them of "selfishness" after they've given away thousands of hours of their time... Your entitlement is just breathtaking.
cheikhcheikh 2mo ago
Did you actually read it ? "Stinky manager" "alreay writing slop before llm" and nore insults, cmon now...
illiac786 2mo ago
Honest and professional is not the same, to summarize. You can be both, but you definitely can be honest and unprofessional or even childish. Children are very honest for example.
kamikazechaser 2mo ago
The wanna cancel Andrew and Zig by extension for hot-takes.
frollogaston 2mo ago
Lack of corpo tone and style is nice. Bun's article on this had some nice technical details, but I got a whiff of salespeople speaking and stopped reading, can't stand it. The content here is the issue. Bun converted their codebase from Zig to Rust, citing specific technical mismatches of Bun using Zig. The response is that Jarred was rumored to be bad at his job, Jarred was mean to people, and Zig didn't like dealing with Bun anyway because of their sloppy code. Maybe all of this is honest, but it's too convenient.

by 0xpgm 2mo ago

neutronicus 2mo ago

[flagged]

swiftcoder 2mo ago
Nah, corpo-speak is the original slop. The result of too many comms/legal inputs to a conversation. Professional communication is direct, clear, and ideally courteous (but only to a point).
- dom96 2mo ago
  Calling someone’s code “slop” surely isn’t professional nor courteous.
  - melodyogonna 2mo ago
    Well, I can't think of other people more qualified to know when a Zig code is slop.
  - neutronicus 2mo ago
    Nor is polemic against financiers.
  - grayhatter 2mo ago
    it is. If I call your code slop, I'm being professional and courteous. The truth doesn't have a ethical value. Me calling your code slop might feel disrespectful, but it's less disrespectful than trying to pass slop off for your coworkers (or users) to use and deal with. Lying to someone, and allowing someone who's supposedly your friend to ship slop is more disrespectful. If I wrote shitty code, and my friend didn't stop me, and I find out later he knew it was shitty code... that would be very hard on our friendship. Unless you meant it's a lie to call it slop code. A lie would be disrespectful, but then again, we both know you didn't say that because it's not a lie.
    - dom96 2mo ago
      Calling something "slop" is dismissive, vague and not constructive. That's why it's not professional. If you want to tell someone their code quality is poor, then you better do so with specific things that is poor so that the person you are telling it to can learn and do better.
      - grayhatter 2mo ago
        > If you want to tell someone their code quality is poor, then you better do so with specific things that is poor so that the person you are telling it to can learn and do better. You and I must have had very different interactions with the types of people who happily emit slop. For the people I've met who've suggested slop; they don't care about quality, and it has exclusively been a waste of time trying to explain why quality is important. Calling someone's work slop, if they're willing to engage, might be disrespectful, I agree! But calling someone code/commit slop when they don't give a shit about the quality of their code (as evidenced by the commits they're willing to put their name on) is simply a description of reality. Willingness to engage is shockingly important. I can't think of a more vague response than answering "I don't know why the code is like that, the LLM did it". I'd also like to assert: giving out slop to other people is more disrespectful, and less professional (professionals don't suggest low quality options). I'm much rather you try to insult my code, than waste my time trying to trick me into accepting low quality work. And then, speaking personally. I would feel the most disrespected, if you were willing to call my code slop when speaking privately. But wouldn't call it slop to me, or publicly. It's not disrespectful to have a candid conversation; even if it's uncomfortable because someone has different and strong opinions than I do. I'm a big boy, I'm able to handle the honest evaluation of my work from another person without it being instantly being disrespectful to me, just because they used a word I didn't like. If they were lying, that would be disrespectful.
        dom96 2mo ago
        Well, the creator of Bun is certainly someone that deserves professionalism. But even random people you get on GitHub sending you PRs. You shouldn't reject them with "this code is slop". At least say "Cannot accept this. The code quality isn't great" or something to that effect. But the point is: dismissing real people who are doing real work and spending a lot of effort on something with "that's slop" is very unprofessional. You are just coming up with scenarios that don't really apply to what happened in this blog post.
- neutronicus 2mo ago
  What is managing legal and PR risk if not professional?
  - swiftcoder 2mo ago
    corporate != professional. Plenty of professionals who do not work in those highly risk-averse corporate roles What's the actual risk here? I guess he could sue Andrew for slander, and then prove in court that his management style doesn't suck, and his code is not slop...
    - neutronicus 2mo ago
      The risk here is that a deep-pocketed entity elects to forgo funding Zig development because they don’t want to sign up for this level of dirty laundry airing if things go poorly.
    - reinitctxoffset 2mo ago
      Professionals worry, stay late at the office, and work hard. They care a great deal about the outcome, they care a great deal about the craft, they are fanatical about their responsibilities. They tend to be willing to increase their accountability faster than their compensation. They sometimes argue, use profanity, or otherwise communicate emphatically, that is the register of communication when something critical is on the line. The best computer hackers and other technologists through the years were very often outspoken, plain spoken, and did not suffer fools gladly. In their own way everyone from Djiksta to Jobs to Gabriel to Carmack to Linus to Nagggum to jwz to Hotz, too many to count. It's the same in law offices, hospitals, and forward operating bases in any military that ever won a war. It's the same on a construction site or in Mission Control in Houston. This venomous pretense of decorum performed by people who ruthlessly optimize to minimize their accountability while maximizing their compensation subject to no scruples. That's not being professional that's being a leisure suit con man. It is en vogue at the moment precisely because we are in an extreme low integrity regime.
tel 2mo ago
It's also a language of distancing from personal experience and honesty. Not saying you're wrong. Professionalism is an important tool for maintaining professional relationships. Lack of professionalism is dangerous to the point where it is reasonable for certain kinds of societies to begin to shun people who don't engage with it. And, at the same time, a certain amount of emotional honesty can be really important to share, too. And that includes some amount of judgement and criticism. It sounds like Zig's relationship with Bun is over. While Anthropic/Jason/Bun did not write a personal narrative about the end of that relationship, they absolutely were the initiators and could not have done this in a more aggressive way. It feels to me to be approximately the equivalent of moving out in secret and serving the divorce documents through your lawyer.
- newaccountman2 2mo ago
  1) If he wants to rant in an emotionally honest way, he can, but other people are free to prefer professionalism and call him out. 2) > It sounds like Zig's relationship with Bun is over. While Anthropic/Jason/Bun did not write a personal narrative about the end of that relationship, they absolutely were the initiators and could not have done this in a more aggressive way. It feels to me to be approximately the equivalent of moving out in secret and serving the divorce documents through your lawyer. What a bizarre framing of the relationship between a software library and the language it's written in. Why would you even liken it to a marriage lolwtf

ModernMech 2mo ago

> Those people talked to each other. Everybody talked to everybody. The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. There’s a big gap between corpo speak and “stinky manager”. That’s nowhere close to professional writing. And he’s not giving us his personal opinion, Kelley is telling us the conclusion of the “grape vine” - he’s reporting on rumors and gossip, and agreeing with it.

27183 2mo ago
[flagged]
- orangedog 2mo ago
  He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project.
  - 27183 2mo ago
    > He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project. What? So let me get this straight--if my open source project which I have given away for free becomes "major" (for some definition) then all of a sudden I have to filter my writing through some kind of average acceptableness test? Come on. [edit] It would be one thing if this was published on Zig letterhead, but it was the guy's personal blog...
    - orangedog 2mo ago
      You have to if you give a shit about the community you are leading, yes. You're not operating as a private figure in that role, everything you do affects the community and it is blind or selfish to act otherwise.
      - 27183 2mo ago
        This is so deeply wrong. This person owes you nothing. You're accusing them of "selfishness" after they've given away thousands of hours of their time... Your entitlement is just breathtaking.

cheikhcheikh 2mo ago

Did you actually read it ? "Stinky manager" "alreay writing slop before llm" and nore insults, cmon now...

illiac786 2mo ago

Honest and professional is not the same, to summarize. You can be both, but you definitely can be honest and unprofessional or even childish. Children are very honest for example.

kamikazechaser 2mo ago

The wanna cancel Andrew and Zig by extension for hot-takes.

frollogaston 2mo ago

Lack of corpo tone and style is nice. Bun's article on this had some nice technical details, but I got a whiff of salespeople speaking and stopped reading, can't stand it. The content here is the issue. Bun converted their codebase from Zig to Rust, citing specific technical mismatches of Bun using Zig. The response is that Jarred was rumored to be bad at his job, Jarred was mean to people, and Zig didn't like dealing with Bun anyway because of their sloppy code. Maybe all of this is honest, but it's too convenient.