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EU driving assists are obtrusive to the point of making driving less safe in my experience. Great video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-S76WEl

by afarah1 2mo ago

EU driving assists are obtrusive to the point of making driving less safe in my experience. Great video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-S76WEl25k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-S76WEl25k

cellular 2mo ago
How many bells would sound if SUNGLASSES hid your eyes?!
- EA-3167 2mo ago
  I can answer this, since I have a new car with this camera and polarized sunglasses. MOST of the time it's good about telling when I'm looking and when I'm not, out of maybe... 5 alerts over the previous 8 months all, but one occurred when I was in fact looking away for one reason or another. Likewise when it's correct my lane-keeping it's been right about me drifting. Given how inattentive I see other drivers being, on their phones for example, and taking into account that I'm (based on my record) a good driver who is attentive... I appreciate these additions. I doubt that they make us less safe, we just dislike anyone or anything telling us how to drive, because "we already know what we're doing." The subjective experience of being distracted however isn't usually so clear-cut, it FEELS like you're paying attention. Note: This is a new model Lexus, so I expect this represents that brand as well as Toyota, but beyond that I don't know.
  - dylan604 2mo ago
    Just because it's available in a Lexus does not mean it's available in a Corolla
    - Reason077 2mo ago
      In Europe it does. ADDW is required in all new vehicles, including Corollas.
  - Brian_K_White 2mo ago
    There is no way that training people not to worry is making us all safer. I don't even like how new cars have this thing where they will automatically hold the brake once stopped even if you let go. There is no way it's a net good to train people that running cars just stay where you put them like an inert object does.
    - EA-3167 2mo ago
      The result for me has been pretty predictable, I'm getting a kind of corrective feedback so I drive in a way that prevents that feedback. The practical result is that imo I'm a better driver, I'm more aware of my lapses in attention, my tendency to overcorrect to the right, and so on. I'm yet to experience a downside, this isn't like using "Autopilot" or some other situation where a machine is taking over for me. I don't see why our skills or caution would be lessened by exposure to realtime feedback.
    - Reason077 2mo ago
      Cars have had that feature ("hill hold assist") for 20+ years now. Even longer for high-end models. There can't be all that many vehicles left on the road that don't have it. Besides, you could make such an argument for any safety feature: "I don't like how new cars have ABS brakes. We shouldn't be training people that you can just slam on the brakes on a slippery surface and expect the wheels to not lock up..." ... "I don't like how new cars have seatbelts. We shouldn't train people that they can just crash into things and not have their face go through the windshield"...
      - Brian_K_White 2mo ago
        If you had put any thought into either of those, you might have come up with some argument that actually applies. Neither of these equates or relates at all.
      - eurleif 2mo ago
        The GP seems to be describing "auto hold", which is a different feature from hill start assist, and is newer and less prevalent.
- Reason077 2mo ago
  In my experience (Tesla), attention monitoring works well even when I'm wearing sunglasses. The camera can still see my eyes even through dark polarised lenses. It may depend on the sunglasses, however - other people report problems with sunglasses that have mirrored lenses etc.
  - jongjong 2mo ago
    It's a matter of time before someone invents sunglasses with eyes painted on the lenses.
    - jazzyjackson 2mo ago
      https://holographer.com/product/hologram-eye-sunglasses/ https://holographer.com/product/hologram-eye-sunglasses/
  - inventor7777 2mo ago
    Sometimes I wonder if Tesla also has a much better software stack than most other manufacturers. IIRC, Tesla has had interior cameras in their cars for years now and I haven't heard about major issues stemming from it.
    - mmmlinux 2mo ago
      It wouldn't be surprising if they did have a better tech stack. also judging from the state of things, it wouldn't be that hard either.
    - Reason077 2mo ago
      The camera was not actually used initially. With the old Autopilot software, attention monitoring was (and still is?) exclusively done with steering wheel torque sensors. Our camera got enabled when we purchased the FSD upgrade. I do agree the software is good, however: it's both more effective and much less naggy/annoying than the old "hands on wheel" method. It still falls back on the torque sensor (requiring hands on wheel) if it thinks you're not paying enough attention, or if it can't see your eyes for whatever reason. And I guess Tesla must have enabled the camera for all new vehicles now, at least in Europe, given that it's required.
mort96 2mo ago
IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. Lane keep assist though? I often drive on narrow country roads barely wide enough for two cars, with a white line on each side but no center line. To avoid large oncoming cars, I need to drive on the white line to my right. When I do, lane keep assist activates motors in my steering wheel which try to force the car into the oncoming traffic. Easy to turn on in the modern car I sometimes drive, but oh my god, that was scary the first few times it happened. Beeping at me is bad enough but messing with the steering wheel??? This should be illegal, not required! I'm mostly pro EU but this crap is genuinely making me resent them.
- tuetuopay 2mo ago
  I almost slammed bicycles in Paris on a few occasions because of that crap. Shift a bit to the left to overtake them, get lane assist slam me back right. Thankfully those were close calls, but only thanks to the cyclist being used to traffic in Paris and having good reflexes. Any dangerous machine (like a car) must not do anything unexpected out of the driver's control. A lane assist that resists the wheel when trying to get out? Why not, but dangerous. A lane assist that slam you back in the lane? Criminal. (same with anti-collision braking that triggers too strong too early and surprises drivers behind you) I'm definitely of the opinion that all those features reduce security. The alarm fatigue is real, because the car always finds something to beep at you. Heck, even your hands not being a perfect 10-2 o'clock on the wheel is reason enough on some cars. You quickly ignore the beeps because there are so many reasons for the car to beep it's hard to even understand why.
  - Vasbarlog 2mo ago
    In all fairness, you should have put your left blinkers on while overtaking the cyclist, and that would have disabled the lane assist.
    - mort96 2mo ago
      Literally does not matter at all. The car should not automatically jerk itself into a cyclist.
LtWorf 2mo ago
My toyota has one that when you're in a narrow road with parked cars that you must drive around, it constantly thinks it's going to do a frontal collision. Except it detects it like half a second too late, when I've already avoided the parked car (this happens at rather slow speeds).
arjie 2mo ago
Isn't that just cultural? Go to a German or French website and you'll be met with a big popover with a bunch of options, half a page of legalese, and some buttons. Pick a Japanese site and you'll get a maximal amount of information packed together. Pick an American site and you'll get the heavy on the whitespace layout. Seems to be the cultural aesthetic choice.
cucumber3732842 2mo ago
> to the point of making driving less safe... But they make it less safe in a hard to measure poorly defined way whereas they make it safer in a measured easy to take credit for way. The safety industry (or whoever, not really sure exactly who's benefitting here) destroying $2 of value to put $1 in their pockets. Textbook example of economic broken windows.

by afarah1 2mo ago

cellular 2mo ago

How many bells would sound if SUNGLASSES hid your eyes?!

EA-3167 2mo ago
I can answer this, since I have a new car with this camera and polarized sunglasses. MOST of the time it's good about telling when I'm looking and when I'm not, out of maybe... 5 alerts over the previous 8 months all, but one occurred when I was in fact looking away for one reason or another. Likewise when it's correct my lane-keeping it's been right about me drifting. Given how inattentive I see other drivers being, on their phones for example, and taking into account that I'm (based on my record) a good driver who is attentive... I appreciate these additions. I doubt that they make us less safe, we just dislike anyone or anything telling us how to drive, because "we already know what we're doing." The subjective experience of being distracted however isn't usually so clear-cut, it FEELS like you're paying attention. Note: This is a new model Lexus, so I expect this represents that brand as well as Toyota, but beyond that I don't know.
- dylan604 2mo ago
  Just because it's available in a Lexus does not mean it's available in a Corolla
  - Reason077 2mo ago
    In Europe it does. ADDW is required in all new vehicles, including Corollas.
- Brian_K_White 2mo ago
  There is no way that training people not to worry is making us all safer. I don't even like how new cars have this thing where they will automatically hold the brake once stopped even if you let go. There is no way it's a net good to train people that running cars just stay where you put them like an inert object does.
  - EA-3167 2mo ago
    The result for me has been pretty predictable, I'm getting a kind of corrective feedback so I drive in a way that prevents that feedback. The practical result is that imo I'm a better driver, I'm more aware of my lapses in attention, my tendency to overcorrect to the right, and so on. I'm yet to experience a downside, this isn't like using "Autopilot" or some other situation where a machine is taking over for me. I don't see why our skills or caution would be lessened by exposure to realtime feedback.
  - Reason077 2mo ago
    Cars have had that feature ("hill hold assist") for 20+ years now. Even longer for high-end models. There can't be all that many vehicles left on the road that don't have it. Besides, you could make such an argument for any safety feature: "I don't like how new cars have ABS brakes. We shouldn't be training people that you can just slam on the brakes on a slippery surface and expect the wheels to not lock up..." ... "I don't like how new cars have seatbelts. We shouldn't train people that they can just crash into things and not have their face go through the windshield"...
    - Brian_K_White 2mo ago
      If you had put any thought into either of those, you might have come up with some argument that actually applies. Neither of these equates or relates at all.
    - eurleif 2mo ago
      The GP seems to be describing "auto hold", which is a different feature from hill start assist, and is newer and less prevalent.
Reason077 2mo ago
In my experience (Tesla), attention monitoring works well even when I'm wearing sunglasses. The camera can still see my eyes even through dark polarised lenses. It may depend on the sunglasses, however - other people report problems with sunglasses that have mirrored lenses etc.
- jongjong 2mo ago
  It's a matter of time before someone invents sunglasses with eyes painted on the lenses.
  - jazzyjackson 2mo ago
    https://holographer.com/product/hologram-eye-sunglasses/ https://holographer.com/product/hologram-eye-sunglasses/
- inventor7777 2mo ago
  Sometimes I wonder if Tesla also has a much better software stack than most other manufacturers. IIRC, Tesla has had interior cameras in their cars for years now and I haven't heard about major issues stemming from it.
  - mmmlinux 2mo ago
    It wouldn't be surprising if they did have a better tech stack. also judging from the state of things, it wouldn't be that hard either.
  - Reason077 2mo ago
    The camera was not actually used initially. With the old Autopilot software, attention monitoring was (and still is?) exclusively done with steering wheel torque sensors. Our camera got enabled when we purchased the FSD upgrade. I do agree the software is good, however: it's both more effective and much less naggy/annoying than the old "hands on wheel" method. It still falls back on the torque sensor (requiring hands on wheel) if it thinks you're not paying enough attention, or if it can't see your eyes for whatever reason. And I guess Tesla must have enabled the camera for all new vehicles now, at least in Europe, given that it's required.

mort96 2mo ago

IMO most features are annoying and contribute to alarm fatigue and driver irritation, but are not directly dangerous. Lane keep assist though? I often drive on narrow country roads barely wide enough for two cars, with a white line on each side but no center line. To avoid large oncoming cars, I need to drive on the white line to my right. When I do, lane keep assist activates motors in my steering wheel which try to force the car into the oncoming traffic. Easy to turn on in the modern car I sometimes drive, but oh my god, that was scary the first few times it happened. Beeping at me is bad enough but messing with the steering wheel??? This should be illegal, not required! I'm mostly pro EU but this crap is genuinely making me resent them.

tuetuopay 2mo ago
I almost slammed bicycles in Paris on a few occasions because of that crap. Shift a bit to the left to overtake them, get lane assist slam me back right. Thankfully those were close calls, but only thanks to the cyclist being used to traffic in Paris and having good reflexes. Any dangerous machine (like a car) must not do anything unexpected out of the driver's control. A lane assist that resists the wheel when trying to get out? Why not, but dangerous. A lane assist that slam you back in the lane? Criminal. (same with anti-collision braking that triggers too strong too early and surprises drivers behind you) I'm definitely of the opinion that all those features reduce security. The alarm fatigue is real, because the car always finds something to beep at you. Heck, even your hands not being a perfect 10-2 o'clock on the wheel is reason enough on some cars. You quickly ignore the beeps because there are so many reasons for the car to beep it's hard to even understand why.
- Vasbarlog 2mo ago
  In all fairness, you should have put your left blinkers on while overtaking the cyclist, and that would have disabled the lane assist.
  - mort96 2mo ago
    Literally does not matter at all. The car should not automatically jerk itself into a cyclist.

LtWorf 2mo ago

My toyota has one that when you're in a narrow road with parked cars that you must drive around, it constantly thinks it's going to do a frontal collision. Except it detects it like half a second too late, when I've already avoided the parked car (this happens at rather slow speeds).

arjie 2mo ago

Isn't that just cultural? Go to a German or French website and you'll be met with a big popover with a bunch of options, half a page of legalese, and some buttons. Pick a Japanese site and you'll get a maximal amount of information packed together. Pick an American site and you'll get the heavy on the whitespace layout. Seems to be the cultural aesthetic choice.

cucumber3732842 2mo ago

> to the point of making driving less safe... But they make it less safe in a hard to measure poorly defined way whereas they make it safer in a measured easy to take credit for way. The safety industry (or whoever, not really sure exactly who's benefitting here) destroying $2 of value to put $1 in their pockets. Textbook example of economic broken windows.