9 ms·

So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?

brewdad 2mo ago
Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society. Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.
- angott 2mo ago
  > Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system to obtain PR. The UK requires a language exam to be granted leave to remain. Canadian federal programs for PR require a language test result to even be considered for the Express Entry program. In Europe, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy also require it, and I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of. Also, B1 is honestly a very basic level of proficiency with the language. It is really hard to be a productive member of society and interact with locals if you cannot speak at a B1 level.
  - pimterry 2mo ago
    One counter-example: in Spain no language test is required for permanent residency, only for citizenship.
    - volkl48 2mo ago
      Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).
  - thesmtsolver2 2mo ago
    Yes. The US doesn’t require language fluency for green cards. You can even bring your own interpret to the interview. United States issues the highest absolute number of permanent residency permits in the world. It grants approximately 1 to 1.4 million lawful permanent resident (LPR) cards (Green Cards) annually
    - pessimizer 2mo ago
      The US is an exception, doesn't require language proficiency for almost anything, and doesn't have an official language. This is very controversial in the US, and always has been. Historically, this can originally be blamed on the desire of the US to import as many European immigrants as quickly as it could after the slaves were freed (post-"1877 Compromise"), because ex-slave votes were changing the composition of government. In 1910, only 60% of white Americans were native born (as opposed to about 98.5% of black Americans.) This period is also referred to as the "nadir of American race relations."
      - nixon_why69 2mo ago
        I'm not saying you're wrong but weren't the big immigration waves northern, and involving a bunch of Catholics who were also hated by the KKK types?
- pandaman 2mo ago
  Which countries are those? In Europe there seems to be only Portugal and only for select categories of permanent residents.
- baranul 2mo ago
  Correct. Seems like various people are confusing the two. The issue of granting PR, is often about an additional tax and labor source for the government of that country. For example: 1) Low birth rates and high ageing population percentage, this can be offset with immigration. Then PR status can be granted, as a kind of carrot and better tax revenue generation "filter". 2) Labor market manipulation and facilitating international business, where immigration is used to fill holes in various industries. Why a country would want to grant PR, usually has different purposes from citizenship. There is overlap, but they aren't the same.
- sva_ 2mo ago
  > Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language This statement is clearly false, off the top of my head only USA and Spain come to mind. There are some countries like Japan where there it isn't a hard requirement, but you'd need a very good reason to justify why
- kuschku 2mo ago
  Germany treats permanent residency much more like a "citizenship lite", e.g., if you are a permanent resident[1] any newborn children will automatically be German citizens (even though Germany has no jus soli). ________________________ Footnotes: [1]: As long as at least one parent is a permanent resident and has in Germany for at least 5 years (the same duration that's usually required to become a permanent resident anyway)
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
zerr 2mo ago
Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...
- FabCH 2mo ago
  I mean, even if you insist on viewing it as a business deal, what exactly prevents one side to put language requirements in the business deal? That’s how deals work, both sides state their position and either they find a middle ground or they don’t.
  - zerr 2mo ago
    Business deal means the requirements should be rational, pragmatic.
    - FabCH 2mo ago
      Well, why is „learn the language“ not a rational and pragmatic requirement? Seems rational to me. Want to live in country X permanently? Learn language X.
      - zerr 2mo ago
        I mean, when you have already proven that you are net positive for the state, and continue doing so, requiring you to pass some exams is not rational. PR != citizenship. Will I have a bit difficulty buying some groceries in a local market? Maybe, but that shouldn't bother the state. Also, you can live permanently without PR. PR unlocks some additional perks, which again, have nothing to do with linguistics.
        FabCH 2mo ago
        Are you a net positive? Just because somebody pays taxes, it doesn’t necessarily make them a net positive. For example, do you contribute culturally? That can be quite hard to do without speaking the language. What about defense. Would you fight for the country? Hard to do if you don’t understand the orders. What about spiritually? Emotionally?

Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society. Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.

angott 2mo ago
> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system to obtain PR. The UK requires a language exam to be granted leave to remain. Canadian federal programs for PR require a language test result to even be considered for the Express Entry program. In Europe, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy also require it, and I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of. Also, B1 is honestly a very basic level of proficiency with the language. It is really hard to be a productive member of society and interact with locals if you cannot speak at a B1 level.
- pimterry 2mo ago
  One counter-example: in Spain no language test is required for permanent residency, only for citizenship.
  - volkl48 2mo ago
    Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).
- thesmtsolver2 2mo ago
  Yes. The US doesn’t require language fluency for green cards. You can even bring your own interpret to the interview. United States issues the highest absolute number of permanent residency permits in the world. It grants approximately 1 to 1.4 million lawful permanent resident (LPR) cards (Green Cards) annually
  - pessimizer 2mo ago
    The US is an exception, doesn't require language proficiency for almost anything, and doesn't have an official language. This is very controversial in the US, and always has been. Historically, this can originally be blamed on the desire of the US to import as many European immigrants as quickly as it could after the slaves were freed (post-"1877 Compromise"), because ex-slave votes were changing the composition of government. In 1910, only 60% of white Americans were native born (as opposed to about 98.5% of black Americans.) This period is also referred to as the "nadir of American race relations."
    - nixon_why69 2mo ago
      I'm not saying you're wrong but weren't the big immigration waves northern, and involving a bunch of Catholics who were also hated by the KKK types?
pandaman 2mo ago
Which countries are those? In Europe there seems to be only Portugal and only for select categories of permanent residents.
baranul 2mo ago
Correct. Seems like various people are confusing the two. The issue of granting PR, is often about an additional tax and labor source for the government of that country. For example: 1) Low birth rates and high ageing population percentage, this can be offset with immigration. Then PR status can be granted, as a kind of carrot and better tax revenue generation "filter". 2) Labor market manipulation and facilitating international business, where immigration is used to fill holes in various industries. Why a country would want to grant PR, usually has different purposes from citizenship. There is overlap, but they aren't the same.
sva_ 2mo ago
> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language This statement is clearly false, off the top of my head only USA and Spain come to mind. There are some countries like Japan where there it isn't a hard requirement, but you'd need a very good reason to justify why
kuschku 2mo ago
Germany treats permanent residency much more like a "citizenship lite", e.g., if you are a permanent resident[1] any newborn children will automatically be German citizens (even though Germany has no jus soli). ________________________ Footnotes: [1]: As long as at least one parent is a permanent resident and has in Germany for at least 5 years (the same duration that's usually required to become a permanent resident anyway)
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]

zerr 2mo ago

Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...

FabCH 2mo ago
I mean, even if you insist on viewing it as a business deal, what exactly prevents one side to put language requirements in the business deal? That’s how deals work, both sides state their position and either they find a middle ground or they don’t.
- zerr 2mo ago
  Business deal means the requirements should be rational, pragmatic.
  - FabCH 2mo ago
    Well, why is „learn the language“ not a rational and pragmatic requirement? Seems rational to me. Want to live in country X permanently? Learn language X.
    - zerr 2mo ago
      I mean, when you have already proven that you are net positive for the state, and continue doing so, requiring you to pass some exams is not rational. PR != citizenship. Will I have a bit difficulty buying some groceries in a local market? Maybe, but that shouldn't bother the state. Also, you can live permanently without PR. PR unlocks some additional perks, which again, have nothing to do with linguistics.
      - FabCH 2mo ago
        Are you a net positive? Just because somebody pays taxes, it doesn’t necessarily make them a net positive. For example, do you contribute culturally? That can be quite hard to do without speaking the language. What about defense. Would you fight for the country? Hard to do if you don’t understand the orders. What about spiritually? Emotionally?