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I've read both Organic Maps thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48794446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48794446 (as it's my favorite map app I us

by ponkipo 2mo ago

I've read both Organic Maps thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48794446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48794446 (as it's my favorite map app I use for years around the world, and I'm an active OSM contributor as well) which quickly became overrun with CoMaps followers trash-talking about OM, now this thread appears. What I find interesting to see, and I think it's not just me who can see this - that basically every mention of CoMaps and why it is good and Organic is bad is it not only seems to be mostly written not by a regular users, but by people who contribute to CoMaps (!) - they all fail to show why exactly anybody should migrate from established app with authors who have years of experience of making Maps.Me and OM - to a basically a no-name (based on downloads) clone who is made by... "community"? We don't even know who that is, original developers and people with experience are not involved. All the talk is not about functionality of the app or anything which is actually important to users - it's all basically complaints about some kind of _internal drama_, add some misleading stuff about "dying project" or "lost community" from some commenters. So many cries about "ads" which are not actually ads but affiliate links in hotels POI which nobody clicks anyway, it's so mild it's just weird to lament about, at least I as a long time user see no issue at all. I can advise CoMaps community to focus on developing the app which can actually make real users migrate and use because of functionality, speed or other things that matter, instead of making your community look toxic because of this trash-talk. Show real improvements in comparison with OM - make live maps updates like OSMAnd, make bookmark folders with specific colors tied to it, make app barely eat any battery, make convenient and powerful interface to add data to the map - then people will move. But for now Organic Maps is totally fine and many people like me see no reason to move from it anywhere.

patcon 2mo ago
I dont know anything about this app besides your framing of "out-of-nowhere community builds an app" but am sometimes suspicious of nation states building these types of open source project forks. It's so easy now, and the cost seems incredibly low, to get into very intimate workflows (of very specific types of people). We've already seen attackers simulate whole communities for attacks on individuals, and I'm just wondering when we're going to see someone simulate a whole open source community in a longer play, as an kickstart on a longer term strategy of compromise
- duxup 2mo ago
  > sometimes suspicious of nation states building these types of open source project forks Is there an example of this? To what end?
  - _factor 2mo ago
    To what end? I can think of 10 reasons immediately off the top of my head, but it’s far easier to fill existing open source projects with agent contributors for most of them. Do you really need someone to rhyme out why state actors do what they do?
    - duxup 2mo ago
      An example would be very interesting and yes explaining what they’re up to would be interesting as well. Otherwise it sounds like a made up conspiracy theory….
      - _factor 2mo ago
        Your accusatory ignorance is not mine to relieve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor
        duxup 2mo ago
        That doesn’t seem to fit the scenario described earlier. You don’t have to explain anything… that’s your call. A claim with nothing to support it doesn’t change either.
        _factor 2mo ago
        You need to work on your reading comprehension. I am not the parent.
        duxup 2mo ago
Cider9986 2mo ago
> What I find interesting to see, and I think it's not just me who can see this - that basically every mention of CoMaps and why it is good and Organic is bad is it not only seems to be mostly written not by a regular users, but by people who contribute to CoMaps (!) - they all fail to show why exactly anybody should migrate from established app with authors who have years of experience of making Maps.Me and OM - to a basically a no-name (based on downloads) clone who is made by... "community"? We don't even know who that is, original developers and people with experience are not involved. I don't think you read enough, I saw plenty of real problems with Organic maps described.
- mikae1 2mo ago
  > I saw plenty of real problems with Organic maps described. What problems exactly?
  - fizwidget 2mo ago
    Affiliate links being included in the app, despite community objections? The lead dev using donations to pay for holidays? Those are a couple that come to mind.
    - u8080 2mo ago
      > lead dev using donations to pay for holidays What's wrong with that?
      - goobatrooba 2mo ago
        If the donation is framed as a single developer benefitting it should be fine, but at least when I was donating that was framed as donations to the project which suggests something else. I'm fine with this use, rewarding a developer, but neither was this transparent nor was it fair for all others working on the project (and supposedly getting cost claims refused).
        2mo ago
franga2000 2mo ago
Given the nature of the problems with OM, this makes sense. The dispute is about governance and money, which is something that only the people involved in development will deeply care about. It makes sense they're the main people talking about it.
schubidubiduba 2mo ago
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hnarn 2mo ago
I’m an Organic Maps user and from a cursory glance I can see no reason to use CoMaps instead, it looks like the same app and I’d wish they’d make an attempt to clearer differentiate themselves since this will be an obvious question.
vladms 2mo ago
> it not only seems to be mostly written not by a regular users, but by people who contribute to CoMaps How did you evaluate that? I use CoMaps, I am not a contributor to it, but in the comments I read I do not remember seeing many people specifying clearly if they are or not contributors (there might have been, but it did not feel like "mostly"). For me CoMaps worked well in the ~6 months for my use-cases (with some issues with the search as everybody reports for both projects). I like much better the site of CoMaps than of OrganicMaps, which influenced a bit my decision to use it. I also like they are hosted on Codeberg than on github.
- ponkipo 2mo ago
  About evaluation - you are right, they don’t say they are contributors in their comments explicitly (which they probably should do), but it was quite telling in one case, when a person trash-talked about OM clearly without proof, but then if you go to its profile and visit a personal website from there - turns out that they are a contributor. I totally expect that’s is also the case with other commenters, but it’s fair to say it’s mostly a guess on my side as for most people you can’t say for sure as they don’t have GitHubs linked to the profile. But I’m 100% sure there are several contributors commenting there, especially taking into account how many CoMaps comments and mentions are there and overall popularity of this app, which is not very big.
Freak_NL 2mo ago
I don't really think it's primarily the CoMaps devs and contributors warning others about OrganicMaps. It's mostly OpenStreetMap contributors (e.g., mappers) like myself who followed the relevant discussions and events and decided that the community is better off routing around the problem. OrganicMaps could be the best app there is in terms of functionality (it isn't), but if there are significant issues with their governance they are harmful to the broader OpenStreetMap community. So we recommend CoMaps and OsmAnd, and carry on mapping.
pastk 2mo ago
> made by... "community"? We don't even know who that is, original developers and people with experience are not involved. FYI I've been the most active non-shareholder contributor of Organic Maps for 3+ years. Though you won't see me (or other ex-OM contributors who've left to start CoMaps) in OM github contributor stats anymore, because OM had banned us (and nowadays they also ban users in their chats and SM accounts for just mentioning CoMaps). But you can still see our PRs, e.g. I've authored Outdoor map style amongst many other improvements. You're right though that CoMaps had been founded because of things like governance, transparency, community and FOSS values, while many users are just interested in features (and hence often prefer Maps.ME even, which is like 10x more popular than OM looking at downloads).
- nodifference 2mo ago
  Well, after you intentionally leaked the map generation code (which was not intended to be published) before creating the fork, it's not surprising that OM banned you. How do your actions align with governance, transparency, community and values?
  - einpoklum 2mo ago
    What do you mean, leaked? Isn't this a FOSS project? Why would it have secret code? Also "not surprising that OM banned you" - what process of adjudication was there before the project decided to ban someone who, by his description at least, is a key contributor? How was this person found guilty, and who decided on the penalty? --- PS - I'm not involved with any of OM, CoMaps, Maps.ME, and actually just found out the first two even exist.
    - sam_lowry_ 2mo ago
      I have a vague reminescence that maps.me (the predecessor of organic maps) was bragging about super-duper efficient maps format back in the day. I guess the secrecy comes from that time.
    - pietervdvn 2mo ago
      Not involved in OM or CoMaps at all; but involved in OpenStreetMap. > What do you mean, leaked? Isn't this a FOSS project? The client-app (CoMaps/Organic Maps) indeed is fully FLOSS. It uses OSM data, but that data is packaged into a specific and optimized format. The code _generating_ this optimized data (and serving it to the clients) was kept proprietary.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
nodifference 2mo ago
[dead]
KomoD 2mo ago
> make app barely eat any battery > But for now Organic Maps is totally fine and many people like me see no reason to move from it anywhere. In my experience OM drained my battery like crazy (I used it for KML tracks) and after consistently seeing that, I gave up on OM.. I can't speak for CoMaps, as I have never tried it.
Vinnl 2mo ago
I was the same, but did end up switching due to features. I'm not sure I remember which sealed the deal, but I remember at least being able to remove/change the left-most button that just points to an About screen IIRC, and updating maps without going through the app store? And just the fact that improvements to Organic Maps also seem to make it to CoMaps, whereas I don't think they flow in the other direction.
goobatrooba 2mo ago
I have no stake in the game other than that I have donated to both projects, but CoMaps seems to have a more sustainable path forward as true FOSS, no need for more drama. Having read some of the discussions I understand that there's also at least one of the original developers on board, so reference to an abstract community without experience seems to be a bit misleading. I can imagine it's frustrating to see your own work continued by others, when you were hoping to benefit and continue the work and all this drama helps no one. Still better if both sides would avoid the ad hominem attacks and conspiracy theories about the other side.
ivanjermakov 2mo ago
Long time OM user, just installed CoMaps. Basically the same app, except a few additional features. Increased label size is very nice! I struggle to read street names in OM while on bike.

by ponkipo 2mo ago

patcon 2mo ago

I dont know anything about this app besides your framing of "out-of-nowhere community builds an app" but am sometimes suspicious of nation states building these types of open source project forks. It's so easy now, and the cost seems incredibly low, to get into very intimate workflows (of very specific types of people). We've already seen attackers simulate whole communities for attacks on individuals, and I'm just wondering when we're going to see someone simulate a whole open source community in a longer play, as an kickstart on a longer term strategy of compromise

duxup 2mo ago
> sometimes suspicious of nation states building these types of open source project forks Is there an example of this? To what end?
- _factor 2mo ago
  To what end? I can think of 10 reasons immediately off the top of my head, but it’s far easier to fill existing open source projects with agent contributors for most of them. Do you really need someone to rhyme out why state actors do what they do?
  - duxup 2mo ago
    An example would be very interesting and yes explaining what they’re up to would be interesting as well. Otherwise it sounds like a made up conspiracy theory….
    - _factor 2mo ago
      Your accusatory ignorance is not mine to relieve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor
      - duxup 2mo ago
        That doesn’t seem to fit the scenario described earlier. You don’t have to explain anything… that’s your call. A claim with nothing to support it doesn’t change either.
        _factor 2mo ago
        You need to work on your reading comprehension. I am not the parent.
        duxup 2mo ago

Cider9986 2mo ago

> What I find interesting to see, and I think it's not just me who can see this - that basically every mention of CoMaps and why it is good and Organic is bad is it not only seems to be mostly written not by a regular users, but by people who contribute to CoMaps (!) - they all fail to show why exactly anybody should migrate from established app with authors who have years of experience of making Maps.Me and OM - to a basically a no-name (based on downloads) clone who is made by... "community"? We don't even know who that is, original developers and people with experience are not involved. I don't think you read enough, I saw plenty of real problems with Organic maps described.

mikae1 2mo ago
> I saw plenty of real problems with Organic maps described. What problems exactly?
- fizwidget 2mo ago
  Affiliate links being included in the app, despite community objections? The lead dev using donations to pay for holidays? Those are a couple that come to mind.
  - u8080 2mo ago
    > lead dev using donations to pay for holidays What's wrong with that?
    - goobatrooba 2mo ago
      If the donation is framed as a single developer benefitting it should be fine, but at least when I was donating that was framed as donations to the project which suggests something else. I'm fine with this use, rewarding a developer, but neither was this transparent nor was it fair for all others working on the project (and supposedly getting cost claims refused).
      - 2mo ago

franga2000 2mo ago

Given the nature of the problems with OM, this makes sense. The dispute is about governance and money, which is something that only the people involved in development will deeply care about. It makes sense they're the main people talking about it.

schubidubiduba 2mo ago

[dead]

hnarn 2mo ago

I’m an Organic Maps user and from a cursory glance I can see no reason to use CoMaps instead, it looks like the same app and I’d wish they’d make an attempt to clearer differentiate themselves since this will be an obvious question.

vladms 2mo ago

> it not only seems to be mostly written not by a regular users, but by people who contribute to CoMaps How did you evaluate that? I use CoMaps, I am not a contributor to it, but in the comments I read I do not remember seeing many people specifying clearly if they are or not contributors (there might have been, but it did not feel like "mostly"). For me CoMaps worked well in the ~6 months for my use-cases (with some issues with the search as everybody reports for both projects). I like much better the site of CoMaps than of OrganicMaps, which influenced a bit my decision to use it. I also like they are hosted on Codeberg than on github.

ponkipo 2mo ago
About evaluation - you are right, they don’t say they are contributors in their comments explicitly (which they probably should do), but it was quite telling in one case, when a person trash-talked about OM clearly without proof, but then if you go to its profile and visit a personal website from there - turns out that they are a contributor. I totally expect that’s is also the case with other commenters, but it’s fair to say it’s mostly a guess on my side as for most people you can’t say for sure as they don’t have GitHubs linked to the profile. But I’m 100% sure there are several contributors commenting there, especially taking into account how many CoMaps comments and mentions are there and overall popularity of this app, which is not very big.

Freak_NL 2mo ago

I don't really think it's primarily the CoMaps devs and contributors warning others about OrganicMaps. It's mostly OpenStreetMap contributors (e.g., mappers) like myself who followed the relevant discussions and events and decided that the community is better off routing around the problem. OrganicMaps could be the best app there is in terms of functionality (it isn't), but if there are significant issues with their governance they are harmful to the broader OpenStreetMap community. So we recommend CoMaps and OsmAnd, and carry on mapping.

pastk 2mo ago

> made by... "community"? We don't even know who that is, original developers and people with experience are not involved. FYI I've been the most active non-shareholder contributor of Organic Maps for 3+ years. Though you won't see me (or other ex-OM contributors who've left to start CoMaps) in OM github contributor stats anymore, because OM had banned us (and nowadays they also ban users in their chats and SM accounts for just mentioning CoMaps). But you can still see our PRs, e.g. I've authored Outdoor map style amongst many other improvements. You're right though that CoMaps had been founded because of things like governance, transparency, community and FOSS values, while many users are just interested in features (and hence often prefer Maps.ME even, which is like 10x more popular than OM looking at downloads).

nodifference 2mo ago
Well, after you intentionally leaked the map generation code (which was not intended to be published) before creating the fork, it's not surprising that OM banned you. How do your actions align with governance, transparency, community and values?
- einpoklum 2mo ago
  What do you mean, leaked? Isn't this a FOSS project? Why would it have secret code? Also "not surprising that OM banned you" - what process of adjudication was there before the project decided to ban someone who, by his description at least, is a key contributor? How was this person found guilty, and who decided on the penalty? --- PS - I'm not involved with any of OM, CoMaps, Maps.ME, and actually just found out the first two even exist.
  - sam_lowry_ 2mo ago
    I have a vague reminescence that maps.me (the predecessor of organic maps) was bragging about super-duper efficient maps format back in the day. I guess the secrecy comes from that time.
  - pietervdvn 2mo ago
    Not involved in OM or CoMaps at all; but involved in OpenStreetMap. > What do you mean, leaked? Isn't this a FOSS project? The client-app (CoMaps/Organic Maps) indeed is fully FLOSS. It uses OSM data, but that data is packaged into a specific and optimized format. The code _generating_ this optimized data (and serving it to the clients) was kept proprietary.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

nodifference 2mo ago

[dead]

KomoD 2mo ago

> make app barely eat any battery > But for now Organic Maps is totally fine and many people like me see no reason to move from it anywhere. In my experience OM drained my battery like crazy (I used it for KML tracks) and after consistently seeing that, I gave up on OM.. I can't speak for CoMaps, as I have never tried it.

Vinnl 2mo ago

I was the same, but did end up switching due to features. I'm not sure I remember which sealed the deal, but I remember at least being able to remove/change the left-most button that just points to an About screen IIRC, and updating maps without going through the app store? And just the fact that improvements to Organic Maps also seem to make it to CoMaps, whereas I don't think they flow in the other direction.

goobatrooba 2mo ago

I have no stake in the game other than that I have donated to both projects, but CoMaps seems to have a more sustainable path forward as true FOSS, no need for more drama. Having read some of the discussions I understand that there's also at least one of the original developers on board, so reference to an abstract community without experience seems to be a bit misleading. I can imagine it's frustrating to see your own work continued by others, when you were hoping to benefit and continue the work and all this drama helps no one. Still better if both sides would avoid the ad hominem attacks and conspiracy theories about the other side.

ivanjermakov 2mo ago

Long time OM user, just installed CoMaps. Basically the same app, except a few additional features. Increased label size is very nice! I struggle to read street names in OM while on bike.