8 ms·

This was very uncommon. It was also unrelated to mRNA vaccines, it was the AstroZeneca vaccine vaxzevria, and it was based on an adenovirus.

cedws 3mo ago
[flagged]
- nxc18 3mo ago
  Seatbelts and airbags sometimes kill people, too. Sometimes people die in unlucky ways.
  - cedws 3mo ago
    Healthy children and young adults were at very little risk from COVID though. Seatbelts are a safety measure that applies almost uniformly across age groups.
    - airstrike 3mo ago
      Healthy individuals spread the disease to others, ultimately killing more people than the infinitesimal odds from getting vaccinated at the height of the pandemic
    - estearum 3mo ago
      Yes, they were at low risk. They were actually at far lower risk of harm from the vaccines. It was and remains statistically correct to vaccinate young people.
      - cedws 3mo ago
        Yes, but the crux of my original point was not about absolute number of lives saved or lost. It was about the trolley problem and mandates.
        estearum 3mo ago
        But the trolley problem doesn't make sense here. The statistically correct thing to do, in nearly all cases for nearly all people, both for themselves and for their community (separately!), was to get vaccinated.
        cedws 3mo ago
        It does though. A government mandate is the same as pulling the lever, it’s trading who lives and who dies. Even if more people survive as result, just like in the original trolley problem, the one who pulls the lever becomes responsible for the exchange. I’m not even arguing the government shouldn’t pull the lever, I just want people to be held accountable for the lives lost as a result, and for the families to be treated with compassion.
        estearum 3mo ago
        Ah I see, I missed that way up the thread you were scoping this to vaccine mandates.
        bawolff 3mo ago
        > just like in the original trolley problem, the one who pulls the lever becomes responsible for the exchange. That is a conclusion you can have, but you're speaking like its the official correct conclusion, which isn't really true. The reason the trolly problem is so popular is because there isn't an agreed upon answer and different people come to different conclusions about it. Some people would agree that by pulling the lever you become morally responsible in a way you aren't if you take no action. Other people think you are morally culpable either way.
        InsideOutSanta 3mo ago
        The one who decides not to pull the lever is just as responsible, and killed a lot more people.
      - ta8903 3mo ago
        Should we really be using words like "correct" for something like this? It's just a tradeoff, you could say it's a better solution optimizing for fewer dead people, but it is in no way a morally superior solution. You could just as easily argue that not vaccinating at all and letting COVID spread would be a better solution for a nation since COVID overwhelmingly killed old and unhealthy people who are otherwise a drag on the economy.
        estearum 3mo ago
        Sir this is an Internet comment section
    - bsder 3mo ago
      > Healthy children and young adults were at very little risk from COVID though. People repeat this but there is no validation of this. Sure, children and young adults mostly weren't at risk of dying. It is not at all clear that there are not bad side effects from getting an active Covid infection. We're still crunching the data. We're just now beginning the process of correlating virii and bad latent effects many years later. HPV -> Cervical Cancer. Epsetin-Barr -> MS. And, of course the one we have known about for a while: Chicken Pox -> Shingles.
- Sabinus 3mo ago
  A tiny fraction of infants react to infant vaccinations. But the harm those children experience is a infintesimal fraction of the harm all children would feel if there were no infant vaccinations. It's a trade off but it's one that must be made. The parents whose child died did the best thing they could do. Until we can screen for the infants that will react, vaccinations are the best choice.
  - zoul 3mo ago
    They did the best for society, not for their child. Yes, vaccines are the best choice, there is no doubt about that. But the society in question must take much better care of those who sacrifice so much for the whole.
    - Sabinus 3mo ago
      No, they did the best for their child. They had no way of knowing their child would react before they gave the vaccine. The harms and risks of illness prevented by vaccination are far greater than the harms and the risks of adverse reaction. Herd immunity arguments can make that calculation more fuzzy but the herd can't tolerate many people opting out and still give group cover. So after a certain amount of people, choosing not to vaccinate is seriously risking illness. Society is built to handle those types of collective action problems. The moral case is still clear IMO.
  - qsera 3mo ago
    > it's a trade off but it's one that must be made. It is a trade off that is fair to the individual and to the society IF the society live up to its end of the bargain and had come up with a method of producing the vaccines without the profit maxxing incentive.
    - Sabinus 3mo ago
      Well regulated markets are extremely productive. If there is another country on Earth that produces better vaccines via a better system I'm all ears but this sounds like unrealistic DemSoc complaining to me. Expand Medicare widely. Make private insurance extremely optional. The other Western democracies seem to manage this pretty well.
- renw0rp 3mo ago
  My cousin died in 2021 at the age of 28 after AstraZeneca vaccine. Quite unfortunate, they starter increasing the age group of people receiving that vaccine literally days after he got it. His parents obviously are obviously still struggling with it and will never really accept it.
- bawolff 3mo ago
  > Imagine if you had lost a son or daughter due to this And imagine if you lost a son or daughter due to not doing this. You are making a choice either way. If the opposite choice was made there are different consequences. Its not like you can opt out of consequences by not choosing.
- InsideOutSanta 3mo ago
  I don't have to imagine, I lost relatives to people who didn't get vaccinated. A lot of people did. Probably literally billions.

cedws 3mo ago

[flagged]

nxc18 3mo ago
Seatbelts and airbags sometimes kill people, too. Sometimes people die in unlucky ways.
- cedws 3mo ago
  Healthy children and young adults were at very little risk from COVID though. Seatbelts are a safety measure that applies almost uniformly across age groups.
  - airstrike 3mo ago
    Healthy individuals spread the disease to others, ultimately killing more people than the infinitesimal odds from getting vaccinated at the height of the pandemic
  - estearum 3mo ago
    Yes, they were at low risk. They were actually at far lower risk of harm from the vaccines. It was and remains statistically correct to vaccinate young people.
    - cedws 3mo ago
      Yes, but the crux of my original point was not about absolute number of lives saved or lost. It was about the trolley problem and mandates.
      - estearum 3mo ago
        But the trolley problem doesn't make sense here. The statistically correct thing to do, in nearly all cases for nearly all people, both for themselves and for their community (separately!), was to get vaccinated.
        cedws 3mo ago
        It does though. A government mandate is the same as pulling the lever, it’s trading who lives and who dies. Even if more people survive as result, just like in the original trolley problem, the one who pulls the lever becomes responsible for the exchange. I’m not even arguing the government shouldn’t pull the lever, I just want people to be held accountable for the lives lost as a result, and for the families to be treated with compassion.
        estearum 3mo ago
        Ah I see, I missed that way up the thread you were scoping this to vaccine mandates.
        bawolff 3mo ago
        > just like in the original trolley problem, the one who pulls the lever becomes responsible for the exchange. That is a conclusion you can have, but you're speaking like its the official correct conclusion, which isn't really true. The reason the trolly problem is so popular is because there isn't an agreed upon answer and different people come to different conclusions about it. Some people would agree that by pulling the lever you become morally responsible in a way you aren't if you take no action. Other people think you are morally culpable either way.
        InsideOutSanta 3mo ago
        The one who decides not to pull the lever is just as responsible, and killed a lot more people.
    - ta8903 3mo ago
      Should we really be using words like "correct" for something like this? It's just a tradeoff, you could say it's a better solution optimizing for fewer dead people, but it is in no way a morally superior solution. You could just as easily argue that not vaccinating at all and letting COVID spread would be a better solution for a nation since COVID overwhelmingly killed old and unhealthy people who are otherwise a drag on the economy.
      - estearum 3mo ago
        Sir this is an Internet comment section
  - bsder 3mo ago
    > Healthy children and young adults were at very little risk from COVID though. People repeat this but there is no validation of this. Sure, children and young adults mostly weren't at risk of dying. It is not at all clear that there are not bad side effects from getting an active Covid infection. We're still crunching the data. We're just now beginning the process of correlating virii and bad latent effects many years later. HPV -> Cervical Cancer. Epsetin-Barr -> MS. And, of course the one we have known about for a while: Chicken Pox -> Shingles.
Sabinus 3mo ago
A tiny fraction of infants react to infant vaccinations. But the harm those children experience is a infintesimal fraction of the harm all children would feel if there were no infant vaccinations. It's a trade off but it's one that must be made. The parents whose child died did the best thing they could do. Until we can screen for the infants that will react, vaccinations are the best choice.
- zoul 3mo ago
  They did the best for society, not for their child. Yes, vaccines are the best choice, there is no doubt about that. But the society in question must take much better care of those who sacrifice so much for the whole.
  - Sabinus 3mo ago
    No, they did the best for their child. They had no way of knowing their child would react before they gave the vaccine. The harms and risks of illness prevented by vaccination are far greater than the harms and the risks of adverse reaction. Herd immunity arguments can make that calculation more fuzzy but the herd can't tolerate many people opting out and still give group cover. So after a certain amount of people, choosing not to vaccinate is seriously risking illness. Society is built to handle those types of collective action problems. The moral case is still clear IMO.
- qsera 3mo ago
  > it's a trade off but it's one that must be made. It is a trade off that is fair to the individual and to the society IF the society live up to its end of the bargain and had come up with a method of producing the vaccines without the profit maxxing incentive.
  - Sabinus 3mo ago
    Well regulated markets are extremely productive. If there is another country on Earth that produces better vaccines via a better system I'm all ears but this sounds like unrealistic DemSoc complaining to me. Expand Medicare widely. Make private insurance extremely optional. The other Western democracies seem to manage this pretty well.
renw0rp 3mo ago
My cousin died in 2021 at the age of 28 after AstraZeneca vaccine. Quite unfortunate, they starter increasing the age group of people receiving that vaccine literally days after he got it. His parents obviously are obviously still struggling with it and will never really accept it.
bawolff 3mo ago
> Imagine if you had lost a son or daughter due to this And imagine if you lost a son or daughter due to not doing this. You are making a choice either way. If the opposite choice was made there are different consequences. Its not like you can opt out of consequences by not choosing.
InsideOutSanta 3mo ago
I don't have to imagine, I lost relatives to people who didn't get vaccinated. A lot of people did. Probably literally billions.