6 ms·

There is some base level of intelligence any model needs to be useful, even in narrow tasks. Could you teach a 5 year old to drive a car? A 10 year old? A 12

by deftio 3mo ago

There is some base level of intelligence any model needs to be useful, even in narrow tasks. Could you teach a 5 year old to drive a car? A 10 year old? A 12 year old? To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. By the time a human in in their mid teens they have acquired the base knowledge... Small models need to have enough base knowledge to be able to be good enough -- even in a seemingly narrow regime. Where is that? Obviously they don't need all the obscure knowledge of a frontier model but there is some base level which is probably more than it would first seem.

universa1 3mo ago
A 10 year old definitely,and 5year old is close, but not unrealistic, To drive a car you don't need to be able to read... To drive a car on the road with other people is a whole other story :-)
- 3eb7988a1663 3mo ago
  I suspect plenty of five year olds can do a respectable job in Mario Kart, Gran Turismo, etc driving games. Gaming has too low of stakes to judge them on perfectly adhering to the rules of the road, but the ability is there.
smokel 3mo ago
Being able to drive a car properly also depends on having the right exploration-exploitation balance. A three-year-old is likely to explore too much in a situation where mistakes can be dangerous. This requires not only knowledge, but also the control systems that develop with the prefrontal cortex. LLMs don't do much control yet.
ygjb 3mo ago
> Could you teach a 5 year old to drive a car? A 10 year old? A 12 year old? To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. By the time a human in in their mid teens they have acquired the base knowledge... I would be interested to see a formal study of this. I say this not out of anything other than a observation that I think the only real blockers are a) judgement, and b) physical reflexes/strength. As a kid I was certainly aware of ice,snow, and rain, because I road my bike year round and had low confidence in my own ability to control my bike on snowy or wet terrain, especially during season changes. That translated into learning to drive in northern Canada in the winter and applying those lessons to driving. In an environment devoid of consequences, I have seen kids operate driving simulations (both real simulations, and video games) with a degree of precision that is shocking, including seeing several 9-11 year olds play the simulations and games with a much higher degree of confidence than adult drivers. Children have an awareness that the simulations are consequence free, unless given other motivation. Adults that are consistent drivers have muscle memory and preconceived expectations that govern the decisions they make when playing the game. I am curious about the level of training and exposure required for children to overcome their lack of awareness of the hard limits and consequences of driving and driver error, versus the amount of training and exposure required for expert drivers that are novice gamers to stop applying their learned experience to consequence free simulations.
- attila-lendvai 3mo ago
  if you don't sit in the car you lack a lot of information. driving without them is almost a different skill. (i'm above average in both)
satvikpendem 3mo ago
While I agree with your assessment, probably could've chosen a better example, as in many countries young kids even as young as 8 will learn how to drive.
- embedding-shape 3mo ago
  In some countries they even let kids as young as 16 drive, no wonder they have so many accidents.
  - swiftcoder 3mo ago
    Several US states will give you a permit to drive a farm vehicle on public roads at 14. Illinois recently passed an amendment to allow farm kids to drive a semi-truck at 16. And there is absolutely no minimum age for driving so long as you are on private land - I have seen 8 year olds driving a pickup truck round a farm...
    - embedding-shape 3mo ago
      The mere fact that children as young as 16 can drive on public roads in the US is kind of crazy. On private land no one should give an ass about it, but children in traffic? Crazytalk.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
threatripper 3mo ago
Ask people who grew up on a farm in a rural area. Sometimes you have to even if you can't and you do.
- subscribed 3mo ago
  I was driving a tractor since 12, including on the road with small farm equipment, and indeed, mostly out of the necessity, but I also received a lot of tuition (from licenced drivers) to know how to behave. Different times though.
  - coldtea 3mo ago
    Not that different. Still happens all the time all over the world (the west included).
- madduci 3mo ago
  True story, they can already drive a tractor at 10 and I know people who learned to drive a proper truck at 13 too
jmalicki 3mo ago
You can teach a dog to drive a car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAK0J8Uhzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAK0J8Uhzk
- dkersten 3mo ago
  And AI tried telling me that Uber for Dogs (dogs are the drivers) was a terrible idea…
wilg 3mo ago
This is more of a question of the definition of "drive a car" than any specific issue about intelligence. Drive a car without errors? Impossible, and now we're into a subjective discussion about what feels intelligent. Pass the DMV test? Probably. How complicated are the conditions? There are plenty of drivers with bad judgement. It's a quicksand sort of discussion.
swiftcoder 3mo ago
> To drive a car requires being able to read Emphatically, it does not. Passing your drivers test may require being able to read, but plenty of illiterate people around the world drive just fine. There is a reason we made all the common road signs recognisable purely by shape/colour, after all.
- avereveard 3mo ago
  Until they reverse on a highway and kill a family. Being able to drive isn't where parent poster put the bar
  - swiftcoder 3mo ago
    I don't see what reading has to do with knowing not to reverse on a highway. It's not like they put up big glowing signs that say "wrong way" like in a video game.
    - avereveard 3mo ago
      There literally are "no u turn" signage where you are supposed not to do that. They literally put up signs for it. It is not glowing in the sky, and it doesnt need to be, and doesnt help making a point strawmanning it.
      - coldtea 3mo ago
        And it's trivial to learn "no u turn" and a few other basic signs as a graphic, even when you can't read them (or can't read in general). It's also trivial to do a u turn even when you can read, know what the sign says, and you feel like doing one because no car is coming anyway, and millions of people do that everyday too.
      - swiftcoder 3mo ago
        > There literally are "no u turn" signage where you are supposed not to do that These signs, you mean? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#No_U-turn_signs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#No_U-...
skeledrew 3mo ago
> To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. Conflation. That's to drive a car safely. To just drive a car one only need know to press gas to move, press brake to stop, turn steering wheel to change direction and maybe use a gear stick to shift into drive/park (car can be modified to abstract that away). Not much more complex than riding a bicycle; maybe even less since no need to learn to balance.
coldtea 3mo ago
>To drive a car requires being able to read Millions of people do drive who can't read. It's very common in parts of Asia, Africa, Latin America, etc, especially rural, but even in cities. There are places where oral exams and audio-assisted testing is allowed. And there are places where people just drive (and drive fine) not bothering with a license.
delis-thumbs-7e 3mo ago
> To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. By the time a human in in their mid teens they have acquired the base knowledge... It is really strange to see comments like this here, where people seem to reduce some basic human action into how it would work in a text-only computer game. Driving itself requires mainly muscular memory how to operate the car, which why people who drive a lot can just go on autopilot and think something completely different when driving long distances. That is of course a form of kno, but you only get it through repetition. Of course driving in traffic requires far more, basic understanding of traffic law etc, but most of driving is muscle memory, understanding the vehicle and anticipating future occurrences. Why we apes are so good at this is because we have some million years of evolution of just using our bodies and seeing what happens. And of course we all seen the gif of an orangutang driving a golf cart (how real it is I’m uncertain), so there’s that. I think might help to think models not as some future replicants, but models with certain capabilities in certain domains. It probably doesn’t make much sense to ask Opus 4.8 to drive you around as it doesn’t make sense to except a small image model made for edge devices to be able to write a novel. Perhaps we should just think of them as tools with certain applications they are made for.
YetAnotherNick 3mo ago
> A 10 year old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLIAoW4QxIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLIAoW4QxIs
cma 3mo ago
As far as just the general driving skill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_0ImDYrPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_0ImDYrPY

by deftio 3mo ago

universa1 3mo ago

A 10 year old definitely,and 5year old is close, but not unrealistic, To drive a car you don't need to be able to read... To drive a car on the road with other people is a whole other story :-)

3eb7988a1663 3mo ago
I suspect plenty of five year olds can do a respectable job in Mario Kart, Gran Turismo, etc driving games. Gaming has too low of stakes to judge them on perfectly adhering to the rules of the road, but the ability is there.

smokel 3mo ago

Being able to drive a car properly also depends on having the right exploration-exploitation balance. A three-year-old is likely to explore too much in a situation where mistakes can be dangerous. This requires not only knowledge, but also the control systems that develop with the prefrontal cortex. LLMs don't do much control yet.

ygjb 3mo ago

> Could you teach a 5 year old to drive a car? A 10 year old? A 12 year old? To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. By the time a human in in their mid teens they have acquired the base knowledge... I would be interested to see a formal study of this. I say this not out of anything other than a observation that I think the only real blockers are a) judgement, and b) physical reflexes/strength. As a kid I was certainly aware of ice,snow, and rain, because I road my bike year round and had low confidence in my own ability to control my bike on snowy or wet terrain, especially during season changes. That translated into learning to drive in northern Canada in the winter and applying those lessons to driving. In an environment devoid of consequences, I have seen kids operate driving simulations (both real simulations, and video games) with a degree of precision that is shocking, including seeing several 9-11 year olds play the simulations and games with a much higher degree of confidence than adult drivers. Children have an awareness that the simulations are consequence free, unless given other motivation. Adults that are consistent drivers have muscle memory and preconceived expectations that govern the decisions they make when playing the game. I am curious about the level of training and exposure required for children to overcome their lack of awareness of the hard limits and consequences of driving and driver error, versus the amount of training and exposure required for expert drivers that are novice gamers to stop applying their learned experience to consequence free simulations.

attila-lendvai 3mo ago
if you don't sit in the car you lack a lot of information. driving without them is almost a different skill. (i'm above average in both)

satvikpendem 3mo ago

While I agree with your assessment, probably could've chosen a better example, as in many countries young kids even as young as 8 will learn how to drive.

embedding-shape 3mo ago
In some countries they even let kids as young as 16 drive, no wonder they have so many accidents.
- swiftcoder 3mo ago
  Several US states will give you a permit to drive a farm vehicle on public roads at 14. Illinois recently passed an amendment to allow farm kids to drive a semi-truck at 16. And there is absolutely no minimum age for driving so long as you are on private land - I have seen 8 year olds driving a pickup truck round a farm...
  - embedding-shape 3mo ago
    The mere fact that children as young as 16 can drive on public roads in the US is kind of crazy. On private land no one should give an ass about it, but children in traffic? Crazytalk.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

threatripper 3mo ago

Ask people who grew up on a farm in a rural area. Sometimes you have to even if you can't and you do.

subscribed 3mo ago
I was driving a tractor since 12, including on the road with small farm equipment, and indeed, mostly out of the necessity, but I also received a lot of tuition (from licenced drivers) to know how to behave. Different times though.
- coldtea 3mo ago
  Not that different. Still happens all the time all over the world (the west included).
madduci 3mo ago
True story, they can already drive a tractor at 10 and I know people who learned to drive a proper truck at 13 too

jmalicki 3mo ago

You can teach a dog to drive a car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAK0J8Uhzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAK0J8Uhzk

dkersten 3mo ago
And AI tried telling me that Uber for Dogs (dogs are the drivers) was a terrible idea…

wilg 3mo ago

This is more of a question of the definition of "drive a car" than any specific issue about intelligence. Drive a car without errors? Impossible, and now we're into a subjective discussion about what feels intelligent. Pass the DMV test? Probably. How complicated are the conditions? There are plenty of drivers with bad judgement. It's a quicksand sort of discussion.

swiftcoder 3mo ago

> To drive a car requires being able to read Emphatically, it does not. Passing your drivers test may require being able to read, but plenty of illiterate people around the world drive just fine. There is a reason we made all the common road signs recognisable purely by shape/colour, after all.

avereveard 3mo ago
Until they reverse on a highway and kill a family. Being able to drive isn't where parent poster put the bar
- swiftcoder 3mo ago
  I don't see what reading has to do with knowing not to reverse on a highway. It's not like they put up big glowing signs that say "wrong way" like in a video game.
  - avereveard 3mo ago
    There literally are "no u turn" signage where you are supposed not to do that. They literally put up signs for it. It is not glowing in the sky, and it doesnt need to be, and doesnt help making a point strawmanning it.
    - coldtea 3mo ago
      And it's trivial to learn "no u turn" and a few other basic signs as a graphic, even when you can't read them (or can't read in general). It's also trivial to do a u turn even when you can read, know what the sign says, and you feel like doing one because no car is coming anyway, and millions of people do that everyday too.
    - swiftcoder 3mo ago
      > There literally are "no u turn" signage where you are supposed not to do that These signs, you mean? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#No_U-turn_signs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibitory_traffic_sign#No_U-...

skeledrew 3mo ago

> To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. Conflation. That's to drive a car safely. To just drive a car one only need know to press gas to move, press brake to stop, turn steering wheel to change direction and maybe use a gear stick to shift into drive/park (car can be modified to abstract that away). Not much more complex than riding a bicycle; maybe even less since no need to learn to balance.

coldtea 3mo ago

>To drive a car requires being able to read Millions of people do drive who can't read. It's very common in parts of Asia, Africa, Latin America, etc, especially rural, but even in cities. There are places where oral exams and audio-assisted testing is allowed. And there are places where people just drive (and drive fine) not bothering with a license.

delis-thumbs-7e 3mo ago

> To drive a car requires being able to read, to have judgement about ice or rainy conditions, to anticipate a child running after a ball. By the time a human in in their mid teens they have acquired the base knowledge... It is really strange to see comments like this here, where people seem to reduce some basic human action into how it would work in a text-only computer game. Driving itself requires mainly muscular memory how to operate the car, which why people who drive a lot can just go on autopilot and think something completely different when driving long distances. That is of course a form of kno, but you only get it through repetition. Of course driving in traffic requires far more, basic understanding of traffic law etc, but most of driving is muscle memory, understanding the vehicle and anticipating future occurrences. Why we apes are so good at this is because we have some million years of evolution of just using our bodies and seeing what happens. And of course we all seen the gif of an orangutang driving a golf cart (how real it is I’m uncertain), so there’s that. I think might help to think models not as some future replicants, but models with certain capabilities in certain domains. It probably doesn’t make much sense to ask Opus 4.8 to drive you around as it doesn’t make sense to except a small image model made for edge devices to be able to write a novel. Perhaps we should just think of them as tools with certain applications they are made for.

YetAnotherNick 3mo ago

> A 10 year old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLIAoW4QxIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLIAoW4QxIs

cma 3mo ago

As far as just the general driving skill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_0ImDYrPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_0ImDYrPY