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>What would it mean if SpaceX buys Tesla though? Does the combined market cap count? That would be wrong. I took a look at the proxy statement as they have it

>What would it mean if SpaceX buys Tesla though? Does the combined market cap count? That would be wrong. I took a look at the proxy statement as they have it outlined in this [0] document (Proposal 4). As currently formulated, Musk has 12 operational goals (like ship 1 million robots or hit 50 billion EBITDA) and 12 market cap goals. These need to be paired together for the shares to vest; so, if he reaches the first market cap number, he also needs to fulfill an operating goal for the first set of shares to be earned. These earned shares vest in ~5 years. This comes with a huge caveat. If Tesla changes control, those operational goals go out the window and his stock award is based solely on market cap (along with the shares immediately vesting). The share price for this is the greater of: 1. The last traded Tesla price prior to the acquisition, or 2. The per share price outlined in the acquisition. The "easiest" way to take advantage is to IPO SpaceX (which he did), pump up the market cap, acquire Tesla for a sizable premium, and vest as much of the stock award as you can. It means you get to avoid the operational goals entirely and vest a bunch of Tesla (but soon to be SpaceX) stock. [0]: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000110465925087598/tm252289-4_pre14a.htm#tKTPC https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000110465925...

NuclearPM 3mo ago
Conflict of interest laws don’t apply to fascists.
- brigandish 3mo ago
  Fascists don't support free speech. Please, learn what that word means[0] and then use it responsibly. We're already seeing the effects of misusing and overusing several other important words for political/societal discourse, and this is one of them. It's entirely unhelpful and lowers the quality of conversation here. [0] The Doctrine of Fascism is available, for free, in several places. Start there.
  - bakies 3mo ago
    Elon fits the definition in Britannica pretty neatly
    - brigandish 3mo ago
      [flagged]
      - bakies 3mo ago
        - Opposition to Marxism and socialism I'd agree. - Opposition to parliamentary democracy Yes. buying elections - Opposition to political and cultural liberalism Yes, banned speech on twitter that trans people use. - Totalitarian ambitions Yes, buying elections - Corporatism trillionare - Imperialism Literally wants to colonize a planet - Military values Building a military satelite constellation - Volksgemeinschaft White supremacist - Mass mobilization election lottery, trump rallys - The leadership principle idk what this is - The “new man” or this - Glorification of youth i guess not - Education as character building what - Decadence and spirituality No. - Violence No. - Extreme nationalism xenophobe - Scapegoating those darn regulations are always in the way - Populism Possibly? i'm sure your reply will be pedantic
        brigandish 3mo ago
        > i'm sure your reply will be pedantic Have you heard of the term "bad faith argument"? That's a good example. > - Opposition to political and cultural liberalism > Yes, banned speech on twitter that trans people use. I had to check this one. I found two stories. [1] shows that people were warned about speech (e.g. using the term cisgender) but were still able to post without problems. [2] showed that X's rules were updated to prevent harassment in the form of deadnaming or misgendering. I doubt that either supports your assertion to be true. As to the rest of your answers, you seem to have given away that you didn't read the Britannica article at all: > - Education as character building > what You should know, right? You read the article and made the accusation. You've done this several times: > - The leadership principle > idk what this is > - The “new man” > or this There's not really a need for me to be pedantic in the face of such slipshod work, but then again, perhaps you think that not being slipshod is being pedantic. Which would also be wrong, but telling. Try learning about what fascism is, that would be my suggestion. With a book, while putting your phone away. [1] https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-x-ban-users-cisgender-slur https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-x-ban-users-cisgender-sl... [2] https://www.advocate.com/news/x-bans-deadnaming-misgendering https://www.advocate.com/news/x-bans-deadnaming-misgendering
  - anon7725 3mo ago
    Fascists do claim to support free speech while wielding the apparatus of state to ensure that any speech that they disagree with is suppressed, eg on college campuses.
    - brigandish 3mo ago
      That's not a rebuttal. Claiming to support is not support. Is Musk wielding the apparatus of state to ensure that any speech that he disagrees with is suppressed, e.g. on college campuses?
      - lgl 3mo ago
        > Is Musk wielding the apparatus of state to ensure that any speech that he disagrees with is suppressed He does not need to do that, he has his army of people like you that go around on all socials and wherever you can to post praise, defend him and attack any critics as he was some sort of uber genius savior of mankind. The Musk cult is real.
        xp84 3mo ago
        So... are you arguing that Musk is an opponent of 'free speech' because... a bunch of private citizens argue with you when you speak critically of Musk? The whole thread (and to be fair, Musk himself most of the time) has lost the plot, since the phrase "freedom of speech" is about the government not restraining or punishing speech. Honestly, what Twitter allowed or not before or after Musk is entirely irrelevant to the concept of free speech. Twitter/X is still just some guy's website.
        anon7725 3mo ago
        Musk explicitly centered his DOGE effort on rooting out “woke” programs. This included pulling funding from independent research under the auspices of various government departments. The Trump administration spent considerable effort strong arming colleges on account of speech that they did not like. Even if you subscribe to FIRE’s “Chicago Statement”, you should find the government interfering with colleges like this a break-glass scenario. “Individual Rights in Education” surely include the right to hold beliefs and teach in a way that the current administration is uncomfortable with. So yes, these are fascist activities wholly consistent with the other fascist activities that MAGA movement is engaged in.
  - andruby 3mo ago
    Does Elon _really_ support free speech? * He suspended multiple journalists from Twitter/X in December 2022 after they had reported on or criticized him [0] * He has been accused of retaliating against critics and employees through threats, lawsuits, or firings, rather than tolerating dissent. [1] * He selective enforcing Twitter/X platform rules. Here's 10 examples: [2] He tolerates speech he likes and often punishing speech he dislikes. That's not being a "free speech" absolutist. [0] https://truthout.org/articles/free-speech-watchdogs-condemn-elon-musk-for-suspending-journalists-from-twitter/ https://truthout.org/articles/free-speech-watchdogs-condemn-... [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/free-speech-absolutist-elon-musk-censors-employees-critics-2022-3?IR=T&r=US https://www.businessinsider.com/free-speech-absolutist-elon-... [2] https://gizmodo.com/10-times-elon-musk-censored-twitter-users-1850570720 https://gizmodo.com/10-times-elon-musk-censored-twitter-user...
    - brigandish 3mo ago
      > That's not being a "free speech" absolutist. One doesn't need to be a free speech absolutist to not be a fascist, far from it; and the exceptions prove the rule - those examples are the definition of exceptional. "10 times…" I can remember people getting banned en masse for changing their profile pic to an NPC character. The difference is night and day.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
- brightball 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - plazmatic 3mo ago
    [dead]
  - adastra22 3mo ago
    The thing is, even the center of the road academics who refrain from such comparisons are noting the similarity. The MAGA movement meets the traditional defining characteristics of fascio. We can be rigid and say that only Mussolini‘s political movement can be properly be called fascist. But if we accept calling Hitler and the Nazis fascists as well, then we open the door to any movement that meets the criteria. And Trump does fit the bill. https://substack.com/@rutgerbregman/p-197211597 https://substack.com/@rutgerbregman/p-197211597
    - Saline9515 3mo ago
      You are conflating a strong regime with authoritarian tendencies with fascism. The link you gave could be used to define China and India as "Fascist" as well. Which they aren't. Besides, other categories exist to define regimes, but I guess now the public debate is binary: either you are fascist or you aren't. I agree that it reduces the amount of thinking required, which is always nice I guess. In the case of Trump, caesarism is likely a better term. Unlike fascists leader such as Hitler or Mussolini, Trump doesn't have an ideology, is heavily corrupt and self-serving and is deeply influenced by a foreign power and lobby. Interestingly, he was stabbed in the back by his closest collaborators at the end of his first term, when he tried his luck. Like Caesar. But Caesarism is less frightening that "fascism", so...let's ignore it! This strategy is a classic of the communist way of doing propaganda: Russians still whine about "Ukrainian fascists", and in the 80´s in the communist block, everyday you could hear complains about "fascists" at the radio. The Berlin wall is originally named the "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart". Why are you reusing soviet talking points, exactly?
      - adastra22 3mo ago
andruby 3mo ago
Yeah, that seems like his goal. > If Tesla changes control Does selling Tesla to SpaceX actually satisfy "changing control" if he remains the largest shareholder?
- antasvara 3mo ago
  My understanding is that Musk doesn't have a controlling share of Tesla. So by the letter of the law, a SpaceX acquisition would qualify as a change in control (because we've gone to a new majority owner).

NuclearPM 3mo ago

Conflict of interest laws don’t apply to fascists.

brigandish 3mo ago
Fascists don't support free speech. Please, learn what that word means[0] and then use it responsibly. We're already seeing the effects of misusing and overusing several other important words for political/societal discourse, and this is one of them. It's entirely unhelpful and lowers the quality of conversation here. [0] The Doctrine of Fascism is available, for free, in several places. Start there.
- bakies 3mo ago
  Elon fits the definition in Britannica pretty neatly
  - brigandish 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - bakies 3mo ago
      - Opposition to Marxism and socialism I'd agree. - Opposition to parliamentary democracy Yes. buying elections - Opposition to political and cultural liberalism Yes, banned speech on twitter that trans people use. - Totalitarian ambitions Yes, buying elections - Corporatism trillionare - Imperialism Literally wants to colonize a planet - Military values Building a military satelite constellation - Volksgemeinschaft White supremacist - Mass mobilization election lottery, trump rallys - The leadership principle idk what this is - The “new man” or this - Glorification of youth i guess not - Education as character building what - Decadence and spirituality No. - Violence No. - Extreme nationalism xenophobe - Scapegoating those darn regulations are always in the way - Populism Possibly? i'm sure your reply will be pedantic
      - brigandish 3mo ago
        > i'm sure your reply will be pedantic Have you heard of the term "bad faith argument"? That's a good example. > - Opposition to political and cultural liberalism > Yes, banned speech on twitter that trans people use. I had to check this one. I found two stories. [1] shows that people were warned about speech (e.g. using the term cisgender) but were still able to post without problems. [2] showed that X's rules were updated to prevent harassment in the form of deadnaming or misgendering. I doubt that either supports your assertion to be true. As to the rest of your answers, you seem to have given away that you didn't read the Britannica article at all: > - Education as character building > what You should know, right? You read the article and made the accusation. You've done this several times: > - The leadership principle > idk what this is > - The “new man” > or this There's not really a need for me to be pedantic in the face of such slipshod work, but then again, perhaps you think that not being slipshod is being pedantic. Which would also be wrong, but telling. Try learning about what fascism is, that would be my suggestion. With a book, while putting your phone away. [1] https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-x-ban-users-cisgender-slur https://www.them.us/story/elon-musk-x-ban-users-cisgender-sl... [2] https://www.advocate.com/news/x-bans-deadnaming-misgendering https://www.advocate.com/news/x-bans-deadnaming-misgendering
- anon7725 3mo ago
  Fascists do claim to support free speech while wielding the apparatus of state to ensure that any speech that they disagree with is suppressed, eg on college campuses.
  - brigandish 3mo ago
    That's not a rebuttal. Claiming to support is not support. Is Musk wielding the apparatus of state to ensure that any speech that he disagrees with is suppressed, e.g. on college campuses?
    - lgl 3mo ago
      > Is Musk wielding the apparatus of state to ensure that any speech that he disagrees with is suppressed He does not need to do that, he has his army of people like you that go around on all socials and wherever you can to post praise, defend him and attack any critics as he was some sort of uber genius savior of mankind. The Musk cult is real.
      - xp84 3mo ago
        So... are you arguing that Musk is an opponent of 'free speech' because... a bunch of private citizens argue with you when you speak critically of Musk? The whole thread (and to be fair, Musk himself most of the time) has lost the plot, since the phrase "freedom of speech" is about the government not restraining or punishing speech. Honestly, what Twitter allowed or not before or after Musk is entirely irrelevant to the concept of free speech. Twitter/X is still just some guy's website.
        anon7725 3mo ago
        Musk explicitly centered his DOGE effort on rooting out “woke” programs. This included pulling funding from independent research under the auspices of various government departments. The Trump administration spent considerable effort strong arming colleges on account of speech that they did not like. Even if you subscribe to FIRE’s “Chicago Statement”, you should find the government interfering with colleges like this a break-glass scenario. “Individual Rights in Education” surely include the right to hold beliefs and teach in a way that the current administration is uncomfortable with. So yes, these are fascist activities wholly consistent with the other fascist activities that MAGA movement is engaged in.
- andruby 3mo ago
  Does Elon _really_ support free speech? * He suspended multiple journalists from Twitter/X in December 2022 after they had reported on or criticized him [0] * He has been accused of retaliating against critics and employees through threats, lawsuits, or firings, rather than tolerating dissent. [1] * He selective enforcing Twitter/X platform rules. Here's 10 examples: [2] He tolerates speech he likes and often punishing speech he dislikes. That's not being a "free speech" absolutist. [0] https://truthout.org/articles/free-speech-watchdogs-condemn-elon-musk-for-suspending-journalists-from-twitter/ https://truthout.org/articles/free-speech-watchdogs-condemn-... [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/free-speech-absolutist-elon-musk-censors-employees-critics-2022-3?IR=T&r=US https://www.businessinsider.com/free-speech-absolutist-elon-... [2] https://gizmodo.com/10-times-elon-musk-censored-twitter-users-1850570720 https://gizmodo.com/10-times-elon-musk-censored-twitter-user...
  - brigandish 3mo ago
    > That's not being a "free speech" absolutist. One doesn't need to be a free speech absolutist to not be a fascist, far from it; and the exceptions prove the rule - those examples are the definition of exceptional. "10 times…" I can remember people getting banned en masse for changing their profile pic to an NPC character. The difference is night and day.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
brightball 3mo ago
[flagged]
- plazmatic 3mo ago
  [dead]
- adastra22 3mo ago
  The thing is, even the center of the road academics who refrain from such comparisons are noting the similarity. The MAGA movement meets the traditional defining characteristics of fascio. We can be rigid and say that only Mussolini‘s political movement can be properly be called fascist. But if we accept calling Hitler and the Nazis fascists as well, then we open the door to any movement that meets the criteria. And Trump does fit the bill. https://substack.com/@rutgerbregman/p-197211597 https://substack.com/@rutgerbregman/p-197211597
  - Saline9515 3mo ago
    You are conflating a strong regime with authoritarian tendencies with fascism. The link you gave could be used to define China and India as "Fascist" as well. Which they aren't. Besides, other categories exist to define regimes, but I guess now the public debate is binary: either you are fascist or you aren't. I agree that it reduces the amount of thinking required, which is always nice I guess. In the case of Trump, caesarism is likely a better term. Unlike fascists leader such as Hitler or Mussolini, Trump doesn't have an ideology, is heavily corrupt and self-serving and is deeply influenced by a foreign power and lobby. Interestingly, he was stabbed in the back by his closest collaborators at the end of his first term, when he tried his luck. Like Caesar. But Caesarism is less frightening that "fascism", so...let's ignore it! This strategy is a classic of the communist way of doing propaganda: Russians still whine about "Ukrainian fascists", and in the 80´s in the communist block, everyday you could hear complains about "fascists" at the radio. The Berlin wall is originally named the "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart". Why are you reusing soviet talking points, exactly?
    - adastra22 3mo ago

andruby 3mo ago

Yeah, that seems like his goal. > If Tesla changes control Does selling Tesla to SpaceX actually satisfy "changing control" if he remains the largest shareholder?

antasvara 3mo ago
My understanding is that Musk doesn't have a controlling share of Tesla. So by the letter of the law, a SpaceX acquisition would qualify as a change in control (because we've gone to a new majority owner).