9 ms·

Allow me to propose a modest alternative to space data centers, namely mountaintop data centers. This would consist of a container full of servers and GPUs and

Allow me to propose a modest alternative to space data centers, namely mountaintop data centers. This would consist of a container full of servers and GPUs and what else goes into a data center, a wind turbine for power and a communication module (say laser or microwave) for communicating with a base station with a fiber connection. This would be lifted on top of a mountain by a helicopter and bolted in place. Cooling would be provided by heat sinks exposed to the outside air. Some of the nodes could relay traffic from other nodes on remote mountain tops out of sight of the base station. This scheme has many advantages over space data centers including launch costs, cooling, connection latency, servicability and ease of recycling.

noisy_boy 3mo ago
What about the rough weather and difficulty of maintenance, especially in rough weather?
- zarzavat 3mo ago
  Maintenance for a mountaintop data center only requires a team of skilled mountaineers. In space you'd need astronauts. It's at least an order of magnitude cheaper, perhaps two or three.
  - fc417fc802 3mo ago
    Nobody is doing maintenance on a small cluster in a satellite. It's disposable with a timespan of less than a decade to recoup all costs. Note that the usual argument to retire hardware is the electrical costs but when you've got lifetime solar you can run it indefinitely.
    - zarzavat 3mo ago
      Nobody is doing maintenance on an orbital data center because it's too expensive and dangerous, not because it wouldn't be useful. Maintenance in space would in fact be way more useful than on land because the redundancy required by a lack of maintenance necessitates extra mass. If you could pay a few space sherpas $100k to head up into LEO and service the thing, it would definitely be worth it.
      - fc417fc802 3mo ago
        I never said it wouldn't be useful, only that it isn't likely to happen. Amortized costs would reflect that. So it seems we agree? > If you could pay a few space sherpas $100k to head up into LEO and service the thing, it would definitely be worth it. Would it? Whatever you pay to launch the repair tech plus the replacement parts could instead be spent launching new hardware. Obviously the repair payload is a fraction of the total weight of new hardware but is it a small enough fraction to make repairing things worthwhile? I think it's likely that disposable is cheaper in this scenario.
titanomachy 3mo ago
What advantage does a mountaintop have versus a more accessible earth-based location? I suspect one of the motivations for space datacenters is to try to stay out of the reach of all jurisdictions so you Musk can start to run his companies as an autonomous state.
- fc417fc802 3mo ago
  If the goal is to avoid various national jurisdictions, what about floating a barge out into international waters? Do it near the equator in the middle of the pacific to maximize the difficulty of humans getting there. Use the money saved by not needing to launch into orbit to purchase massive gun turrets to prevent piracy.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3mo ago
    A submarine comes by, says hi by torpedo, bye. Woe! blub °Oo.
    - XorNot 3mo ago
      Yes because when your infrastructure is Earth based, your staff is Earth based and your customers are Earth based, your company's legal registration and owner are Earth based, it would be absolutely impossible for a government to enforce any type of jurisdictional control if your datacenters were in space. And absolutely no one, anywhere, ever, has the capability to damage or destroy a satellite...
      - simondotau 3mo ago
        Absolutely no one, anywhere, ever, has the capability to damage or destroy many hundreds of satellites (assuming that SpaceX wouldn't be a willing launch partner).
        XorNot 3mo ago
        > (assuming that SpaceX wouldn't be a willing launch partner) really think about that statement when discussing deliberately avoiding government jurisdiction... (perhaps also consider that it is not the case that no one can damage a lot of satellites in orbit, but that up until recently no one has had any incentive to build the number of interceptors you would need to do it. But how viable is a space-based datacenter business if you decide to try and pretend you're untouchable, and one of the _many_ governments which operates anti-satellite weapons simply shoots one of your satellites? The debris field from ASAT weapons tests has been of considerable concern everytime they've been used - and given the proximity of useful orbital slots for such a service, the number of intercepts required to render a constellation completely inoperable is going to be _far less_ then the number of satellites). (in the vein of motivation too: it is well within the power of most well-funded governments to build laser systems would would degrade or destroy orbital satellites, but again, no one has had considerable motivation to do so till recently) (and of course all of this is - again - competing against the simpler option of simply arresting the people on Earth, or interdicting their ground stations)
JoelJacobson 3mo ago
I think we can't rule out the explanation that all the ideas of space data centers could be connected to a desire by some of finding additional applications for rockets that can transport stuff to space.
- gnfargbl 3mo ago
  I think we can't rule out the explanation that all the ideas of space data centers could have been connected solely to a desire to pump SpaceX's IPO.
  - notahacker 3mo ago
    It also provides a post hoc rationale for rolling Elon's loss making businesses into SpaceX. The bull case for ODCs looks a lot like the bull case for space based solar power that Musk once called "the stupidest thing ever"... That said, SpaceX aren't the only entity proposing ODCs, they're just the only ones promising they're going to make country-sized profits out of them...
jvanderbot 3mo ago
What would be accomplished by doing this vs placing them basically anywhere else on earth?
- lpapez 3mo ago
  It is a comment on the absurdity of orbital data centers. Mountaintop data centers sound absurd, but are more feasible and efficient than orbital ones in nearly every aspect.
  - jvanderbot 3mo ago
    That's fine, if the argument for DC in space is just "Let's put them in the hardest place possible". Then less hard -> absurd, implies more harder -> more absurder. But space based dc accomplish something that mountaintop dc do not. The different list of benefits/tradeoffs are why space DC are proposed and mountaintop ones are not. It's a difference of kind, not degree. It's not a meaningful experiment to just try to build DC in hard places and then we can finally validate space. Stated benefits in particular: - Power available 24/7 for "free" - coms w/o interruption using existing infra - Rideshare (SPX can build out capacity while other lifts pay some of the bill for lift) - Nonregulation - Very low latency to "places of interest far from USA mountains" And no, I do not believe that mountaintop automatically satisfies these benefits in a smooth way such that mountaintop is a meaningful stepping stone towards space.
    - zarzavat 3mo ago
      > - Power available 24/7 for "free" The Sun is visible from Earth as well, the last time I checked. In LEO you don't get power 24/7 because you are only 500km above the Earth. Yes the Sun is more attenuated on Earth but what we care about is $/W not raw wattage, and Earth certainly has cheaper $/W than space. > - coms w/o interruption using existing infra I'm perplexed how comms might be easier in space than on Earth where you can just run a cable. > - Rideshare (SPX can build out capacity while other lifts pay some of the bill for lift) On Earth you don't need to rideshare because you don't have to ride a rocket. > - Nonregulation Space is more regulated than Earth. The only way to get to space is via a rocket which is the same as an ICBM. Governments regulate the process of building ICBMs and what payloads can ride on them. If you want non-regulation then go to international waters or find a bribable government. > - Very low latency to "places of interest far from USA mountains" The latency is not terrible in LEO but it's nowhere near as good as on Earth.
amelius 3mo ago
A better idea is to put them on Mars, so people actually think before they send a stupid question.
- notahacker 3mo ago
  I'm thinking if we send them out to catch the Voyager probe up, people might have time to write stuff themselves before they ask the computer to do it for them :)
mysterydip 3mo ago
(I know this is a joke, but it made me think): I wonder what side effects having GW-level heat generation would have on the surrounding area. snowcapped mountains turn to rivers? Spring year round? Something else?
belZaah 3mo ago
You just need to go north. Most of Finland requires massive amounts of heating for most of the year for industrial and residential purposes. If the math doesn’t add up there, I really can’t see how math for orbital data centers would add up.

noisy_boy 3mo ago

What about the rough weather and difficulty of maintenance, especially in rough weather?

zarzavat 3mo ago
Maintenance for a mountaintop data center only requires a team of skilled mountaineers. In space you'd need astronauts. It's at least an order of magnitude cheaper, perhaps two or three.
- fc417fc802 3mo ago
  Nobody is doing maintenance on a small cluster in a satellite. It's disposable with a timespan of less than a decade to recoup all costs. Note that the usual argument to retire hardware is the electrical costs but when you've got lifetime solar you can run it indefinitely.
  - zarzavat 3mo ago
    Nobody is doing maintenance on an orbital data center because it's too expensive and dangerous, not because it wouldn't be useful. Maintenance in space would in fact be way more useful than on land because the redundancy required by a lack of maintenance necessitates extra mass. If you could pay a few space sherpas $100k to head up into LEO and service the thing, it would definitely be worth it.
    - fc417fc802 3mo ago
      I never said it wouldn't be useful, only that it isn't likely to happen. Amortized costs would reflect that. So it seems we agree? > If you could pay a few space sherpas $100k to head up into LEO and service the thing, it would definitely be worth it. Would it? Whatever you pay to launch the repair tech plus the replacement parts could instead be spent launching new hardware. Obviously the repair payload is a fraction of the total weight of new hardware but is it a small enough fraction to make repairing things worthwhile? I think it's likely that disposable is cheaper in this scenario.

titanomachy 3mo ago

What advantage does a mountaintop have versus a more accessible earth-based location? I suspect one of the motivations for space datacenters is to try to stay out of the reach of all jurisdictions so you Musk can start to run his companies as an autonomous state.

fc417fc802 3mo ago
If the goal is to avoid various national jurisdictions, what about floating a barge out into international waters? Do it near the equator in the middle of the pacific to maximize the difficulty of humans getting there. Use the money saved by not needing to launch into orbit to purchase massive gun turrets to prevent piracy.
- LargoLasskhyfv 3mo ago
  A submarine comes by, says hi by torpedo, bye. Woe! blub °Oo.
  - XorNot 3mo ago
    Yes because when your infrastructure is Earth based, your staff is Earth based and your customers are Earth based, your company's legal registration and owner are Earth based, it would be absolutely impossible for a government to enforce any type of jurisdictional control if your datacenters were in space. And absolutely no one, anywhere, ever, has the capability to damage or destroy a satellite...
    - simondotau 3mo ago
      Absolutely no one, anywhere, ever, has the capability to damage or destroy many hundreds of satellites (assuming that SpaceX wouldn't be a willing launch partner).
      - XorNot 3mo ago
        > (assuming that SpaceX wouldn't be a willing launch partner) really think about that statement when discussing deliberately avoiding government jurisdiction... (perhaps also consider that it is not the case that no one can damage a lot of satellites in orbit, but that up until recently no one has had any incentive to build the number of interceptors you would need to do it. But how viable is a space-based datacenter business if you decide to try and pretend you're untouchable, and one of the _many_ governments which operates anti-satellite weapons simply shoots one of your satellites? The debris field from ASAT weapons tests has been of considerable concern everytime they've been used - and given the proximity of useful orbital slots for such a service, the number of intercepts required to render a constellation completely inoperable is going to be _far less_ then the number of satellites). (in the vein of motivation too: it is well within the power of most well-funded governments to build laser systems would would degrade or destroy orbital satellites, but again, no one has had considerable motivation to do so till recently) (and of course all of this is - again - competing against the simpler option of simply arresting the people on Earth, or interdicting their ground stations)

JoelJacobson 3mo ago

I think we can't rule out the explanation that all the ideas of space data centers could be connected to a desire by some of finding additional applications for rockets that can transport stuff to space.

gnfargbl 3mo ago
I think we can't rule out the explanation that all the ideas of space data centers could have been connected solely to a desire to pump SpaceX's IPO.
- notahacker 3mo ago
  It also provides a post hoc rationale for rolling Elon's loss making businesses into SpaceX. The bull case for ODCs looks a lot like the bull case for space based solar power that Musk once called "the stupidest thing ever"... That said, SpaceX aren't the only entity proposing ODCs, they're just the only ones promising they're going to make country-sized profits out of them...

jvanderbot 3mo ago

What would be accomplished by doing this vs placing them basically anywhere else on earth?

lpapez 3mo ago
It is a comment on the absurdity of orbital data centers. Mountaintop data centers sound absurd, but are more feasible and efficient than orbital ones in nearly every aspect.
- jvanderbot 3mo ago
  That's fine, if the argument for DC in space is just "Let's put them in the hardest place possible". Then less hard -> absurd, implies more harder -> more absurder. But space based dc accomplish something that mountaintop dc do not. The different list of benefits/tradeoffs are why space DC are proposed and mountaintop ones are not. It's a difference of kind, not degree. It's not a meaningful experiment to just try to build DC in hard places and then we can finally validate space. Stated benefits in particular: - Power available 24/7 for "free" - coms w/o interruption using existing infra - Rideshare (SPX can build out capacity while other lifts pay some of the bill for lift) - Nonregulation - Very low latency to "places of interest far from USA mountains" And no, I do not believe that mountaintop automatically satisfies these benefits in a smooth way such that mountaintop is a meaningful stepping stone towards space.
  - zarzavat 3mo ago
    > - Power available 24/7 for "free" The Sun is visible from Earth as well, the last time I checked. In LEO you don't get power 24/7 because you are only 500km above the Earth. Yes the Sun is more attenuated on Earth but what we care about is $/W not raw wattage, and Earth certainly has cheaper $/W than space. > - coms w/o interruption using existing infra I'm perplexed how comms might be easier in space than on Earth where you can just run a cable. > - Rideshare (SPX can build out capacity while other lifts pay some of the bill for lift) On Earth you don't need to rideshare because you don't have to ride a rocket. > - Nonregulation Space is more regulated than Earth. The only way to get to space is via a rocket which is the same as an ICBM. Governments regulate the process of building ICBMs and what payloads can ride on them. If you want non-regulation then go to international waters or find a bribable government. > - Very low latency to "places of interest far from USA mountains" The latency is not terrible in LEO but it's nowhere near as good as on Earth.

amelius 3mo ago

A better idea is to put them on Mars, so people actually think before they send a stupid question.

notahacker 3mo ago
I'm thinking if we send them out to catch the Voyager probe up, people might have time to write stuff themselves before they ask the computer to do it for them :)

mysterydip 3mo ago

(I know this is a joke, but it made me think): I wonder what side effects having GW-level heat generation would have on the surrounding area. snowcapped mountains turn to rivers? Spring year round? Something else?

belZaah 3mo ago

You just need to go north. Most of Finland requires massive amounts of heating for most of the year for industrial and residential purposes. If the math doesn’t add up there, I really can’t see how math for orbital data centers would add up.