8 ms·

This is great news, unions not only improve working conditions, but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. I

• deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
• amazingamazing 4mo ago
  Really? American cars suck compared to japanese and chinese which are not unionized. What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better?
  • squigz 4mo ago
    Is there any reason to believe North American cars wouldn't be even worse if there weren't unions?
    • SV_BubbleTime 4mo ago
      Hello, long-time automotive EE here… The absolute insanity I’ve seen from the UAW would make your fucking head spin right off. It took me a LONG time to accept it. Ignore my first hand experience with your political ideology, it doesn’t bother me. But, I’ll tell you I’ve been at on-site RVs and BBQs with dozens of on the clock workers. I know a guy making 80/hr to nap and watch TV in his RV for six of his eight hour shift, and this was not uncommon. I know him, because he is THE GUY that can get a vital operation checked out and no one else. I’m not debating history or ideology. Just experience of a long time working adjacent to UAW. When I go to on-site to Mexico it’s like an entirely different industry.
      • kotaKat 4mo ago
        Don't forget all the guys that got caught by Rob Wolchek on a Fox investigative news report down on their break at the Jeep plant drinking beer and smoking pot in a park then hopping back in their Chrysler products to scamper back to the plant to build some more sloppy Jeeps... apparently a crooked enough arbitrator said that wasn't enough evidence and forced their jobs back. The UAW does nothing good. Looking at my 2018 Mexican-built Ford Fusion I've had no major defects. Looking at our 2020 UAW-built Ford Escape was nothing but quality issue after quality issue. When the trim literally falls off the windows, you know we've screwed the pooch. There were moments I genuinely wish I could have driven it back to Kentucky to go make some slovenly fuck repair what they didn't put on the thing right the first time. Quality is no longer "job 1".
  • AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
    Japanese auto workers have been unionized since the 60s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automobile_Workers%27_Unions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Japan_Automob... In fact part of the SCAP mandates after World War II two during the MacArthur occupation was specifically to form powerful unions in Japan
    • amazingamazing 4mo ago
      Interesting - but seems like Toyota in particular had their cars produced by non unionized group producing workers at least for some period: https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-toyota-plant-launch-campaign-to-join-the-uaw/ https://uaw.org/we-keep-toyota-running-workers-at-critical-t... Seems hard to compare since there is no comparison in Japan that is not unionized But given that China is now winning my original point stands
      • AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
        Hey as long as you can find a reason you are right, that’s really what all life is about right?
        • amazingamazing 4mo ago
          Huh? Are you projecting something here?
          • evdubs 4mo ago
            Is it so difficult to say, "You're right. I'm wrong. There are actually unions for autoworkers in both China and Japan." ?
      • ranguna 4mo ago
        Your point turned from "here are some examples" to "here's a sample of one". And that "one" is so different, society wise, from all the other ones that I'm not sure is useful here other that "if you live in a society like this that's just starting to massively produce world wide in this sector other than a brand or two they were doing before, then maybe there can be no union workers compared to the other companies that have been producing world wide for decades across multiple models and brands"
  • afavour 4mo ago
    Correlation != causation. There are a ton of differences between the US car industry and those in other countries, unionization is just one factor. As a counter anecdote I’d point to Boeing’s non-union facilities, which have produced notably less reliable airplanes than their union locations ever did.
    • amazingamazing 4mo ago
      Aren’t most boeing made by unionized workers? If by both that seems like a good comparison to make
      • dcrazy 4mo ago
        Boeing actually offers a fascinating direct comparison. 787 Max has historically been assembled in two locations: unionized Renton, WA and non-union Charleston, SC. The Charleston planes were notorious for needing rework at Renton before they were airworthy. But the conclusion is muddied by the fact that Boeing has been making planes in the Seattle area for a century, so the talent pool is larger and more qualified than those they could find in or persuade to move to Charleston. Also, the whole Charleston move was one of many drastic cost-cutting efforts, including the spinoff of Spirit Aerospace that ultimately led to the door blowout on the Alaska Air MAX 9.
  • simonjgreen 4mo ago
    The unionised Openreach in UK who are really the de facto layer 1 network provider telco build infrastructure to a staggeringly higher quality than most of the move fast startup alternatives. Aviation unions force very high standards and represent a lot of the developments in safety and procedures. Nuclear power is heavily unionised, resulting in a very stable and highly qualified workforce. Unions in film and tv have done great work defending artists rights and protecting actors, writers, crew, and others from predatory behaviour by studios. Fire fighter unions stand against unsafe demands and protect the crews in ways the individuals can’t, resulting in meaningful change. (I’m aware of UK but projecting and assuming this applies internationally) I could go on…
    • amazingamazing 4mo ago
      I see the benefit of a union for the workers, but your examples seem strange. They do not illustrate that a union somehow results in a better product. If that were self evident how come there has never been a company that started with employees unionized? To get this supposed benefit
      • AndrewKemendo 4mo ago
        They’re called cooperatives Mondragon is a extremely large well structured cooperative that did exactly this and is a hallmark of success for anarchist cooperatives worldwide
        • deleted 4mo ago
          [deleted]
        • bit-anarchist 4mo ago
          It's a bit reversed, labor unions are cooperatives, not the other way around, as cooperatives are more flexible in arrangement than unions. Don't disagree with the rest of the comment though. EDIT: also, I wouldn't consider coops an anarchist victory over traditional private companies anymore than democracy over monarchy. The corporation > worker hierarchy is still there, even with the different share distribution. It's a good demonstration of an alternative and underappreciated corporate structure, tho.
  • evdubs 4mo ago
    > What’s an example of a unionized vs non unionized group producing the same thing where unionized is better? Here's a layup: art. Remember the writer's union strike in 2007-2008? All of the shows whose writers were on strike that still went on were terrible. Edit: also, the purpose of a union is not to "produce something better". The purpose of a union is to protect workers' rights. They generally serve their purpose very well.
  • paddim8 4mo ago
    Volvo workers in Sweden are unionised
  • VanTheBrand 4mo ago
    But Japanese autoworkers are unionized and have been for a very long time? So there is an example of a unionized group producing a great product!
    • dcrazy 4mo ago
      I’d be hesitant to directly draw broad generalizations about unions across countries. Labor practices and historical context are very different, and the U.A.W. is a singular creature.
  • humoctopus 4mo ago
    most japanese auto workers are unionized, though unions work a little differently there.
  • insane_dreamer 4mo ago
    > japanese and chinese which are not unionized might want to check your facts before posting
  • thrance 4mo ago
    American manufacturers suck because of rampant financialization, not unions. They have prioritized the needs shareholders over those of consumers for a while now. Your hatred of workers striving for better working conditions is disturbing. Maybe there are more important things in life than conspicuous consumption and filling one's home with cheap garbage?
• parineum 4mo ago
  > but also improve the final product by not having underpaid stressed staff with high turn-over. We'll see. It's not like police unions are making life better for citizens. Unions are there for one reason, the union members. This will most likely be good for the employees and good on them for acting in their best interest but it seems just as likely that a unionized rockstar is negative for the consumer in either increased pricea, extended timelines or minimum effort to meet exact requirements from employees. The benefits that workers gain from unionizing come from somewhere.
  • zarzavat 4mo ago
    I would happily pay extra money for GTA 6 if it goes to improving working conditions. It's only negative for the consumer if the consumer views life as a zero sum game.
    • jjice 4mo ago
      I agree with you, but I think most people don't. People generally hate paying for software and the $60->$70 standard AAA game pricing got a lot of people (my well paid friends included) complaining. Even if it was very clearly said that it is the cost of a well paid and respected team behind the game, I think most people won't care.
      • zarzavat 4mo ago
        That's fine though. The value of unions is that they can force consumers to pay for better working conditions and prevent a race to the bottom. Consumers usually are workers themselves so they also benefit from raising the bar of working conditions. Even if they don't like paying more, they are still receiving the benefit of living in a better society.
        • jjice 4mo ago
          I completely agree with you, but I have found that the average person I've talked to about things like this refuses to look past the first thing they see, which is higher prices. If everything could go up and not just have people switch to the next lowest cost good with bad worker conditions, then that could work. I'd argue GTA 6 is an inelastic good and people will play it no matter what, so I do think what you're saying applies here.
• matchbok3 4mo ago
  There's no data to prove this assertion, unfortunately.
  • lucky_cloud 4mo ago
    There are plenty of studies backed by plenty of data to support exactly these assertions.
    • matchbok3 4mo ago
      There are countless counter examples that are obvious. Teacher's unions (hard to fire teachers, poor quality). Transit unions (mandating 2 drivers per subway car, crazy benefits, etc). Auto industry fighting EVs. Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to make such a broad statement regarding this at all. A union's job is to protect the union. Nothing else.
      • qmmmur 4mo ago
        I would be interested to understand more about what you think unions and organisation have done for working rights over the last 100 years.
        • matchbok3 4mo ago
          That is an entirely different argument that's not particularly germane to this topic. One can agree that unions, in the past, have helped workers, and also understand that they are not always in the best interest of the general public. It's complex, but possible!
          • Apocryphon 4mo ago
            Then that is an argument to reform and innovate on unions, not do away with them altogether.
            • 4mo ago
• Sevii 4mo ago
  Exactly, that is why US ports are the most efficient in the world.
  • dymk 4mo ago
    Indeed, The US, pinnacle of strong unions
• groundzeros2015 4mo ago
  Not true at all. They protect the weakest employees at expense of the strongest and in game crunch at the end when the vision has materialized is good and makes the product better
  • kelnos 4mo ago
    > game crunch at the end when the vision has materialized is good and makes the product better At the expense of the mental health of everyone involved. It's a video game, not a life-saving new medicine. Not worth it.
    • groundzeros2015 4mo ago
      I enjoy a crunch with well defined scope and goals.
• fourside 4mo ago
  Damn this comment really made the anti-unionists come out of the woodwork. I’ll admit, I’m a bit skeptical and think it’s not a given that the benefits you listed will come to be. But I’ve been annoyed at the significant shift in tone that software company executives’ have used when communicating with employees lately. For one, we went from being admittedly pampered compared to most other industries to getting threats of mass layoffs unless we do more and demand less. I wouldn’t mind the idea of using the possibility of unions to have executives back off, but if people are going to pop off at mere suggestion of unions I don’t think we’d get very far.