5 ms·

One of the most user-hostile companies on earth. My John Deere lawnmower came with a fuel gauge that runs off a CR2032 that's embedded in epoxy. The battery run

• elAhmo 5mo ago
  [flagged]
  • snowe2010 5mo ago
    Don’t comment if you don’t want to actually contribute. How are people supposed to know these things before buying the equipment. What if they’re the only provider in their region? There’s a billion reasons why your comment doesn’t contribute.
    • linuxftw 5mo ago
      John Deere has had a terrible reputation for over a decade now. They've always used proprietary parts for the tractors. Do 5 minutes of research.
    • laughing_man 5mo ago
      "Don't buy their stuff" is exactly the right answer. You need to do your research before you buy big ticket items. It may not be true in every sector, but Deere has plenty of competition.
      • enaaem 5mo ago
        How can you do research without victims complaining?
        • laughing_man 5mo ago
          Why wouldn't victims complain?
          • OKRainbowKid 5mo ago
            Because when they do, they receive snide remarks like "just don't buy their stuff then".
            • laughing_man 5mo ago
              Nobody is saying you can't relate your experience with this equipment. What we're saying is consumer action is enough to solve this problem. It just takes some time. There's a certain type of customer that wants the dealer to handle parts and repair. But those guys aren't the lawn mower segment.
              • not_kurt_godel 5mo ago
                > What we're saying is consumer action is enough to solve this problem. Citation needed
                • scheeseman486 5mo ago
                  Might be hard for them to do that given this lawsuit is hard proof that it isn't true.
                • laughing_man 5mo ago
                  Is it? You've never been to a grocery store?
                  • not_kurt_godel 5mo ago
                    I have not been to a grocery store that sells "Deere-brand Large Ag Equipment"[0] - aka $200k-1M John Deere tractors/harvesters/combines - that are the subject of the settlement. Have you? [0]: https://www.agri-pulse.com/ext/resources/pdfs/gov.uscourts.ilnd.415798.333.1.pdf https://www.agri-pulse.com/ext/resources/pdfs/gov.uscourts.i...
      • alpaca128 5mo ago
        Do you seriously expect other companies not following suit? People need lawnmowers, so this can quickly turn into the same situation we have with the inkjet printer market.
        • laughing_man 5mo ago
          Yes, I expect that. Low sales will concentrate the mind.
      • nmbrskeptix 5mo ago
        [dead]
      • M95D 5mo ago
        No, that's not the answer. It only applies to those people who have time and energy to spare to do that reasearch. I'm not talking just farming equipment, but ordinary items such as a vacuum cleaner or printer. If you're low income, work 2 jobs, single parent, get home at 23:00 broken tired, want a meal but your fridge just broke down and everything is spoiled inside, you don't spend 2 more hours doing reasearch. You clean it, go to bed hungry, call repair in the morning (optional, if your hopes are high), and when they tell you it's not repairable, you get the first new fridge you can afford in a 10 min online search while on the bus/train/tram being late to work. Reasearch, self-repair, is for wealthy people.
        • laughing_man 5mo ago
          It takes twenty minutes to figure out what other people are saying about a product. And even if you don't have time to do research, you develop a feeling for brands over time. I would never buy a lawn mower from Deere, not because this or that lawnmower is a known bad item, but because the company has had a bad reputation for decades. A tractor can be almost a million dollar item now, and nobody spending a million dollars should be doing so without doing some research.
        • Dead_Lemon 5mo ago
          Self-repair is an average day on a farm. A farmer that does not research equipment they about to purchase, especially before spending a small fortune, is a fool. That's like saying you don't bother learning what illnesses your animals or crops may contract, and how to prevent/cure them, because you're not wealthy. Buying a book and reading it, to the improve your abilities, is time well spent. Most maintenance on a tractor is not major, and require basic skill and parts. It's the companies that don't want this, they want specialized technicians to come out to replace an oil filter. I have a 30 year old vacuum cleaner, which I continue to maintain, which mostly amounts to stripping it once every 10 years and cleaning out all the filters that caked up with fine dust. Definitely cheaper to strip it myself one evening, than to pay someone to do it, or purchase a new one. It is like an hour of work for years of service.
        • brikym 5mo ago
          This 100%. I live rural and my water pump broke. No water means no showers, no dishwasher, no washing machine, and everyone in the family being uncomfortable. Realistically you get whatever the plumbing place has in stock and knows how to install - even if it's not technically the best one for the site.
      • gambiting 5mo ago
        Please tell us - if you were buying one of these, would you specifically research how the fuel gauge works? Be honest.
        • laughing_man 5mo ago
          Of course not. But I would definitely find out what kind of problems people are having.
      • WithinReason 5mo ago
        So the customer is 100% to blame then?
    • edm0nd 5mo ago
      bruh dont sweat it. mainly everyone here is SF tech bros who have never worked a hard day in their life lol
    • charcircuit 5mo ago
      >How are people supposed to know these things before buying the equipment. By looking at reviews or paying someone to evaluate the product. >What if they’re the only provider in their region Then there is an opportunity for competition. Or you can import a product from another region.
      • prawn 5mo ago
        All great in theory, but in importing farm machinery, you need to take into account servicing options and warranty claims. Would be painful if you need to truck a harvester or even mower interstate for a warranty claim. And it's not like these things are always available from a source with reviews. Reviews for new models are less likely to cover repair-access issues that will arise in a few years' time.
      • kstrauser 5mo ago
        As an outsider, that’s literally what I’m doing: paying attention to the reviews. And some people are telling the reviewer to shut up and quit whining, thus encouraging them not to leave the review that I want to be reading. Make up your mind. Do you want people to read and write reviews, or don’t you?
    • choilive 5mo ago
      Well.. farming equipment are high 6 figures 7 pieces of business equipment (the lifetime operating costs are definitely in the 7 figures.) These are owned and operated by people who I would expect to do this type of research and critical thinking. These aren't normie consumers buying everyday appliances or electronics. However.. farmers are a weird bunch and they are blinded by brand loyalty or will only buy from an "American" company which ironically allowed JD to stomp all over them because of their dominant market position.
      • M95D 5mo ago
        I'm no farmer, but brand loyalty might have practical reasons, such as compatibility with attached farming equipment (plows?).
        • universa1 5mo ago
          The attachment mechanism is usually standardized, so you can just switch between brands. Nowadays a larger factor might be how close the next dealership/repair shop is. Some things are time critical, and when it breaks in this time, then you don't want to drive hours to have it fixed/get a part/ have a mechanic available. There are some differences between the brands... And you can always be Clarkson and get a Lamborghini, even when it makes no sense ;-)
    • Markoff 5mo ago
      do your research before buying, they have this reputation ofr many years it's like complaining about HP ink printer everyone was warning about for last 10-15 years at least same should apply to Samsung TVs at least in the last 5-10 years
  • user3939382 5mo ago
    Under that logic we don’t need any consumer protection laws.
    • rexpop 5mo ago
      Undoubtedly the poster to whom you're replying unironically agrees.
  • rocmcd 5mo ago
    You're getting downvoted, but this is really the only answer here. Companies won't stop acting this way as long as their shitty behavior is rewarded, and people keep rewarding their shitty behavior. No amount of legislation is going to prevent them from doing this. This settlement even proves that they can keep doing it with impunity!
  • dmos62 5mo ago
    What would you say if every manufacturer did this? Build your own? Further, you can't blame a person for not knowing that a machine has these planned obsolescence traps or repair-hostile traps: the manufacturer does not tell you the costs he has hidden. Further, this shouldn't be legal: it's little more than swindling.
• dyauspitr 5mo ago
  That’s wild.They had to go out of their way to not wire it to the 12V.
  • M95D 5mo ago
    They had to go out of their way to make it not work after you replace the battery with a good one.
• dmos62 5mo ago
  Hot take: it takes mental gymnastics to think that planned obsolescence is not fraud.
  • maxerickson 5mo ago
    Is there a bright line between cost reduction and planned obsolescence? Obviously a small unreplaceable battery is not a good example for that discussion.
    • jojobas 5mo ago
      Going out of your way to make sure the gauge doesn't work after the battery is replaced surely is.
      • maxerickson 5mo ago
        I wonder if the gauge is just a horrible design that uses the battery to keep some memory alive. Microcontrollers with persistent memory are not expensive, so something like that would just be horrible design, not something you could even try to justify as a cost reduction.
        • maxerickson 5mo ago
          Oh, I suppose it is using the battery to write after shutdown. Bleh.
    • hgomersall 5mo ago
      I had an interesting situation where we had failure of a Thule bike trailer wheel and could see where the connection-to-the-trailer design had changed from an earlier version (from the company that Thule bought). The wheel functioned the same, but you could see a clear difference which fully explained the failure. I expect it was a cost optimisation, and we only encountered the failure because we used it very heavily. Edit: they also failed to honour their warranty commitments, but that was secondary.
    • 5mo ago
• userbinator 5mo ago
  Chances are you might find a compatible replacement from China on Ali and the other usual sites for a fraction of the price.
• b112 5mo ago
  This is where small claims court can have a HUGE impact. Where I live, in small claims: * Lawyers are not allowed * There is no forced discovery. Sue John Deere, and they cannot ask for endless documents * There is no way to assign costs on loss. If you lose, you never pay costs for the person you sued (which makes sense -- no lawyers) * If you don't understand something, typically the judge will act as a mediator and explain it to you. Yet meanwhile, suing in small claims will typically result in a big company using lawyers, who will try to pretend the above is not true. They will also rack up large costs for the company. In the end, sometimes a lawyer will appear in small claims court beside a company employee. However the company employee will do the talking. My cost to file is $100. My cost to serve (via courier with tracking + sig) was $10. The company I went after, a fortune 500 company, I suspect spent >$50k on lawyers. While small to the company, it is truly a way to level the playing field. What I find amusing here is, you could sue for a replacement unit. Explain what you found. Where I am, the max resolution is $30k, so you could easily get a refund for the tractor. Citing this issue while describing all of this, could result in two outcomes. 1) Deere employee claims (in their defense) that a batch of units were defective. They then deliver a fixed unit to you. While not perfect, it would be amusing, because they'll have just spent $50k in paying lawyers, along with making a proper unit. 2) You just claim that the tractor is defective, you can't sell it as it is, except maybe for parts. And you're not sure most of them are usable (weird electronics), and even cite that Deere stuff apparently is designed to break without authorized repairs. So how can you in good faith, even try to sell it to anyone?? So you ask for your time, costs, and full replacement costs with another brand. Adding your wage/hr is somewhat typical here, for calls, research, sawing it open, all of it. -- Anyhow. If #1 is chosen and it breaks again, then you can repeat the whole fun process. And I do mean it is fun. $100 + I filled out a 2 page form, and then fedexed it to them. Their lawyers kept pestering me, to which I simply said "No" and "I don't need to give you anything, there's no forced discovery". This too was very satisfying, when I kept in mind how each call to me cost the company probably about $1k. I mean, literally I'm sure each 5 minute call was around that ballpark. It was sheer joy. (Just don't discuss any aspect of the case in these calls.) Then there was a pre-trail meeting where I, the company rep, and a retired judge sat. I was told that "nothing said here can ever be used in court", which made it more fun. The system's attempt to resolve before trial. That too was fun, for I got to finally tell the company, over and over, how wrong they were. Anyhow. It's a fun process.
• M95D 5mo ago
  In EU, a product such as this would have a 2 year minimum warranty. How long was yours?
  • pdpi 5mo ago
    They might be able to work around that by arguing it’s a consumable, so not a warranty issue.
    • M95D 5mo ago
      Fuel is a consumable, and fuel gauge is also a consumable? You have lots of terrible judges if anyone could seriously consider that argument.
      • pdpi 5mo ago
        Oh the argument would never be phrased that way. Rather, you start from the completely uncontroversial point that a CR2032 battery is a consumable, come up with some reason why you can't use a bare cell like that and need some sort of assembly around it, and incrementally justify adding more functionality into that assembly. Also, remember that you don't need to prove that the design is sensible, only that it isn't deliberately malicious.
        • deleted 5mo ago
          [deleted]
  • gambiting 5mo ago
    Again, it's a misconception(and I'm from the EU). EU law guarantees that for 2 years from purchase(it's actually 6 on most items) the seller has to fix any issues that arise from manufacturing faults. In the first 6 months of ownership, any fault is automatically presumed to be a manufacturing fault, after 6 months the buyer has to prove that it is. That is not the same as a warranty, if your laptop randomly stops working 2 years in you don't automatically get a right to have it repaired unless you can prove it failed because of a manufacturing defect(which as you can imagine, is actually quite hard to prove). A lot of manufacturers have alligned their warranties to be 2 years long in the EU because they don't want to deal with the above, but it's completely 100% legal to offer a 1 year or 6 months warranty in the EU on any item. Your rights with regards to seller's responsibility are not affected by it.