6 ms·

This is slightly different from what OpenCode was banned from doing; they were a separate harness grabbing a user’s Claude Code session and pretending to be Cla

by firloop 6mo ago

This is slightly different from what OpenCode was banned from doing; they were a separate harness grabbing a user’s Claude Code session and pretending to be Claude Code. OpenClaw was still using Claude Code as the harness (via claude -p)[0]. I understand why Anthropic is doing this (and they’ve made it clear that building products around claude -p is disallowed) but I fear Conductor will be next. [0]: See “Option B: Claude CLI as the message provider” here https://docs.openclaw.ai/providers/anthropic#option-b-claude-cli-as-the-message-provider https://docs.openclaw.ai/providers/anthropic#option-b-claude...

freedomben 6mo ago
Ah thank you, this is very helpful distinction to know. When they shut down open code, I thought it was a lame move and was critical of them, but I could understand at least where they're coming from. With this though, it's ridiculous. Claude core tools are still being used in this case. Shelling out to it to use it there's no different than a normal user would do themselves. If this continues, I'll be taking my $200 subscription over to open AI.
- sunsunsunsun 6mo ago
  Im still using opencode with claude pro so im confused.
  - stavros 6mo ago
    You're using it with a PAYG API key, not a subscription.
- xvector 6mo ago
  No a normal user is not shelling out to Claude Code 24/7, but OpenClaw certainly is. OpenAI will soon do the same thing, don't be delusional.
  - freedomben 6mo ago
    If OpenAI does it too, well then I guess my principles will be challenged. Gemini CLI is unfortunately too eager to use Flash despite my setting it to use Pro, and it generates ass code that doesn't work, so that's out. I might have to invest in some GPUs then and run local. We'll cross that bridge when we get there though.
andai 6mo ago
Why are they doing that? Opus is the only good way to run Claw. Do they regret making it cheaper or what? Also what's the point of Claude -p if not integration with 3rd party code? (They have a whole agents SDK which does the same thing.. but I think that one requires per token pricing.) I guess they regret supporting subscription auth on the -p flag
- happyopossum 6mo ago
  > Opus is the only good way to run Claw that's a ridiculous position to take - gemini and others work just great with claw...
  - andai 6mo ago
    Well, it might have been cargo culting but that was the consensus in the OC community a while ago.
  - nickthegreek 6mo ago
    5.4 and minimax 2.7 work nicely as well.
- randall 6mo ago
  exactly. They probably have unsustainable margins on accident.
wild_egg 6mo ago
I keep hearing OpenClaw runs on pi? EDIT: confused by downvotes. In this thread people are saying it runs on top of `claude -p` and others saying it's on pi. The `claude -p` option is allowed per https://x.com/i/status/2040207998807908432 https://x.com/i/status/2040207998807908432 so I really don't understand how they're enforcing this.
- nc 6mo ago
  It runs on pi, not claude -p
  - kzahel 6mo ago
    That's my understanding too, though i haven't checked it. running claude -p would be horribly inefficient. I would not be surprised if openclaw added some compatibility layer to brute force prompts through claude -p as a workaround. This isn't the first time that openclaw was "banned" from claude subscriptions.
loveparade 6mo ago
I assume this means we can no longer use Claude code sessions in editors like zed because it also wraps claude cli via ACP?
- upcoming-sesame 6mo ago
  ACP was a good idea but I feel it has not lived up to its potential.
userbinator 6mo ago
and they’ve made it clear that building products around claude -p is disallowed Imagine not being able to connect services together or compose building-blocks to do what you want. This is absolute insanity that runs counter to decades of computing progress and interoperability (including Unix philosophy); and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't even care for using AI.
- colechristensen 6mo ago
  You absolutely can, just pay for their API usage. The subscriptions are deeply discounted if you use your full quota compared to the API.
  - mccoyb 6mo ago
    It is confusing for a company to sell you the subscription service, say "Claude Code is covered", ship Claude Code with `claude -p`, and then say "oh right, actually, not _all of Claude Code_, don't try and use it as a executable ... sorry, right, the subscription only works as long as you're looking at that juicy little Claude Code logo in the TUI" The disrespect Anthropic has for their user base is constant and palpable.
    - colechristensen 6mo ago
      This strikes me the same way the people in college who would print 497 empty pages at the end of the semester for the quota "they'd paid for" or that one guy who made lemonade at restaurants with the free lemon wedges and sugar packets. "Contempt for users" is silly. Adjusting terms to handle users who use things as not intended isn't contempt.
      - mccoyb 6mo ago
        Contempt for users is not silly when the CEO of said company has repeatedly claimed they will replace SWEs "end-to-end" by next year. I'm not sure what to say. You're either listening to the actions of these companies, or you're not in a place where you feel the need to be concerned be their actions. I'm in a place where I'm concerned by their actions, and the impact that their claims and behavior have on the working environment around me.
sethherr 6mo ago
I’m also terrified of this. When this happens I will have to look at other providers and downgrade my subscription. Conductor is just too powerful to give up. It’s the whole reason why I’m on a max plan.
zmmmmm 6mo ago
> building products around claude -p But OpenClaw is not a product. It's just a pile of open source code that the user happens to choose to run. It's the user electing to use the functionality provided to them in the manner they want to. There's nothing fundamental to distinguish the user from running claude -p inside OpenClaw from them running it inside their own script. I've mostly defended Anthropic's position on people using the session ids or hidden OAuth tokens etc. But this is directly externally exposed functionality and they are telling the user certain types of uses are banned arbitrarily because they interfere with Anthropic's business. This really harms the concept of it as a platform - how can I build anything on Claude if Anthropic can turn around and say they don't like it and ban me arbitrarily.
- beering 6mo ago
  Claude Code is not a platform and you’re not meant to be building on it. Netflix is also not a platform and you shouldn’t be running code (open source or not) to mass download Netflix movies either.
  - mccoyb 6mo ago
    https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#what-you-can-do https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#what-you-can-do Try this one: https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#run-agent-teams-and-build-custom-agents https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#run-agent-teams-and... Or perhaps: https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#pipe-script-and-automate-with-the-cli https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#pipe-script-and-aut... You know what they say about looking and quacking.
  - zmmmmm 6mo ago
    It's a reasonable comment, and I should be clear, I don't expect it to be a platform. But I do expect to be able to use its advertised features for any reasonable purpose they can support. Where it leaves me is is sort of like the DoD - nobody should use Claude for anything. Because Anthropic has set as principle here that if they don't like what you do, they will interfere with your usage. There is no principle to guide you on what they might not like and therefore ban next. So you can't do anything you want to be able to rely on. If you need to rely on it, don't use Claude Code. And to be clear, I'm not arguing at all against using their API per-token billed services.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
adastra22 6mo ago
Has there been an actual change to their ToS? As of the last change which I saw reach HN, a week or so ago, `claude -p` was still in compliance with the Claude Code ToS. Has that language changed?
- siva7 6mo ago
  Came here to say the same. I remember the discussion on HN back then where we discovered that an official from Anthropic made clear that claude -p was still okay.

by firloop 6mo ago

freedomben 6mo ago

Ah thank you, this is very helpful distinction to know. When they shut down open code, I thought it was a lame move and was critical of them, but I could understand at least where they're coming from. With this though, it's ridiculous. Claude core tools are still being used in this case. Shelling out to it to use it there's no different than a normal user would do themselves. If this continues, I'll be taking my $200 subscription over to open AI.

sunsunsunsun 6mo ago
Im still using opencode with claude pro so im confused.
- stavros 6mo ago
  You're using it with a PAYG API key, not a subscription.
xvector 6mo ago
No a normal user is not shelling out to Claude Code 24/7, but OpenClaw certainly is. OpenAI will soon do the same thing, don't be delusional.
- freedomben 6mo ago
  If OpenAI does it too, well then I guess my principles will be challenged. Gemini CLI is unfortunately too eager to use Flash despite my setting it to use Pro, and it generates ass code that doesn't work, so that's out. I might have to invest in some GPUs then and run local. We'll cross that bridge when we get there though.

andai 6mo ago

Why are they doing that? Opus is the only good way to run Claw. Do they regret making it cheaper or what? Also what's the point of Claude -p if not integration with 3rd party code? (They have a whole agents SDK which does the same thing.. but I think that one requires per token pricing.) I guess they regret supporting subscription auth on the -p flag

happyopossum 6mo ago
> Opus is the only good way to run Claw that's a ridiculous position to take - gemini and others work just great with claw...
- andai 6mo ago
  Well, it might have been cargo culting but that was the consensus in the OC community a while ago.
- nickthegreek 6mo ago
  5.4 and minimax 2.7 work nicely as well.
randall 6mo ago
exactly. They probably have unsustainable margins on accident.

wild_egg 6mo ago

I keep hearing OpenClaw runs on pi? EDIT: confused by downvotes. In this thread people are saying it runs on top of `claude -p` and others saying it's on pi. The `claude -p` option is allowed per https://x.com/i/status/2040207998807908432 https://x.com/i/status/2040207998807908432 so I really don't understand how they're enforcing this.

nc 6mo ago
It runs on pi, not claude -p
- kzahel 6mo ago
  That's my understanding too, though i haven't checked it. running claude -p would be horribly inefficient. I would not be surprised if openclaw added some compatibility layer to brute force prompts through claude -p as a workaround. This isn't the first time that openclaw was "banned" from claude subscriptions.

loveparade 6mo ago

I assume this means we can no longer use Claude code sessions in editors like zed because it also wraps claude cli via ACP?

upcoming-sesame 6mo ago
ACP was a good idea but I feel it has not lived up to its potential.

userbinator 6mo ago

and they’ve made it clear that building products around claude -p is disallowed Imagine not being able to connect services together or compose building-blocks to do what you want. This is absolute insanity that runs counter to decades of computing progress and interoperability (including Unix philosophy); and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't even care for using AI.

colechristensen 6mo ago
You absolutely can, just pay for their API usage. The subscriptions are deeply discounted if you use your full quota compared to the API.
- mccoyb 6mo ago
  It is confusing for a company to sell you the subscription service, say "Claude Code is covered", ship Claude Code with `claude -p`, and then say "oh right, actually, not _all of Claude Code_, don't try and use it as a executable ... sorry, right, the subscription only works as long as you're looking at that juicy little Claude Code logo in the TUI" The disrespect Anthropic has for their user base is constant and palpable.
  - colechristensen 6mo ago
    This strikes me the same way the people in college who would print 497 empty pages at the end of the semester for the quota "they'd paid for" or that one guy who made lemonade at restaurants with the free lemon wedges and sugar packets. "Contempt for users" is silly. Adjusting terms to handle users who use things as not intended isn't contempt.
    - mccoyb 6mo ago
      Contempt for users is not silly when the CEO of said company has repeatedly claimed they will replace SWEs "end-to-end" by next year. I'm not sure what to say. You're either listening to the actions of these companies, or you're not in a place where you feel the need to be concerned be their actions. I'm in a place where I'm concerned by their actions, and the impact that their claims and behavior have on the working environment around me.

sethherr 6mo ago

I’m also terrified of this. When this happens I will have to look at other providers and downgrade my subscription. Conductor is just too powerful to give up. It’s the whole reason why I’m on a max plan.

zmmmmm 6mo ago

> building products around claude -p But OpenClaw is not a product. It's just a pile of open source code that the user happens to choose to run. It's the user electing to use the functionality provided to them in the manner they want to. There's nothing fundamental to distinguish the user from running claude -p inside OpenClaw from them running it inside their own script. I've mostly defended Anthropic's position on people using the session ids or hidden OAuth tokens etc. But this is directly externally exposed functionality and they are telling the user certain types of uses are banned arbitrarily because they interfere with Anthropic's business. This really harms the concept of it as a platform - how can I build anything on Claude if Anthropic can turn around and say they don't like it and ban me arbitrarily.

beering 6mo ago
Claude Code is not a platform and you’re not meant to be building on it. Netflix is also not a platform and you shouldn’t be running code (open source or not) to mass download Netflix movies either.
- mccoyb 6mo ago
  https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#what-you-can-do https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#what-you-can-do Try this one: https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#run-agent-teams-and-build-custom-agents https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#run-agent-teams-and... Or perhaps: https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#pipe-script-and-automate-with-the-cli https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview#pipe-script-and-aut... You know what they say about looking and quacking.
- zmmmmm 6mo ago
  It's a reasonable comment, and I should be clear, I don't expect it to be a platform. But I do expect to be able to use its advertised features for any reasonable purpose they can support. Where it leaves me is is sort of like the DoD - nobody should use Claude for anything. Because Anthropic has set as principle here that if they don't like what you do, they will interfere with your usage. There is no principle to guide you on what they might not like and therefore ban next. So you can't do anything you want to be able to rely on. If you need to rely on it, don't use Claude Code. And to be clear, I'm not arguing at all against using their API per-token billed services.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

adastra22 6mo ago

Has there been an actual change to their ToS? As of the last change which I saw reach HN, a week or so ago, `claude -p` was still in compliance with the Claude Code ToS. Has that language changed?

siva7 6mo ago
Came here to say the same. I remember the discussion on HN back then where we discovered that an official from Anthropic made clear that claude -p was still okay.