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Had this conversation with a friend, but I think as an America you can be very optimistic about the institutional strength of democracy in the country. People

Had this conversation with a friend, but I think as an America you can be very optimistic about the institutional strength of democracy in the country. People are very pessimistic recently, but if anything, we are seeing that our system works well. A person got into power that a majority voted for, but when he oversteps, the courts and other institutions (even judges and fed reserve chairs he picked!) seem to hold him to the rules. I get the pessimism, but for the most part, I kinda think the system is working.

cwillu 6mo ago
The question is not whether the walls can contain the bull until animal control arrives, but whether any china will remain intact.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- setsewerd 6mo ago
  Given the iran situation I think china will be fine. (I'll show myself out)
- kirubakaran 6mo ago
  The bull comparison is a bit unfair to the bull, who didn't break any china at all in MythBusters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzw2iBmRsjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzw2iBmRsjs
- pjc50 6mo ago
  It's more like the early bits of Jurassic Park: the T-Rex bashing away at the restraints while everyone assures you that they spared no expense to make it secure.
mxkopy 6mo ago
This is one ruling out of many, many of which directly benefit Trump. See Trump vs. United States 2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States There’s absolutely 0 reason to be optimistic towards a court stacked explicitly in his favor.
paulv 6mo ago
> that a majority voted for A majority of people who voted. Not a majority of eligible voters and certainly not a majority.
- sillysaurusx 6mo ago
  Are you saying that if all eligible voters were forced to vote, Trump may have lost the popular vote?
  - paulv 6mo ago
    I'm saying that words have meanings and that it's important to be clear about what they are.
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
  - wafflemaker 6mo ago
    >Are you saying that if all eligible voters were forced to vote, Trump may have lost the popular vote? I've recently heard a commentary by a man with PhD in international relations* about why has Trump won the elections. Specialist said that a lot of people who would have voted against Trump didn't vote. That was due to many grave mistakes made by the democrats. Usually when populists win, it's because the other side blatantly ignores some public issues. This time it was economic hardships, immigration/border control. There is also the long trend of turning away from the working class and focusing on protecting/supporting the DEI people instead. The working class might feel betrayed and vote against them instead. "The cost of hubris" - as one of the Minmatar militia missions from Eve online was called.
    - d-cc 6mo ago
      Or there is mass neurocompromise. At least we have a pardon czar now. So many people have been coerced into committing crimes, with said coercion taking many different forms, there needs to be mass pardons across the board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Marie_Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Marie_Johnson everybody check her out.
zaptheimpaler 6mo ago
lol judges have ruled 100s or 1000s of ICE detentions in various states illegal by now. None of that has stopped ICE from doing what it's doing. This kind of optimism in the law seems naive today because there is no mechanism to actually enforce it. All federal agents have very substantial legal & civil immunity, heads of departments have immunity as well. The head of the legal system is Pam Bondi who isn't even prosecuting child rapists, or Donald Trump who is one. Even after Kristi Noem ruined countless lives and was responsible for deaths of innocent people, the only consequence she faced is being demoted to some made up job where she still gets paid to do nothing - no fine, no jail, not even being out of work, no accountability, no justice. None of the ICE agents involved have faced any consequences besides a leave either, we don't even know most of their names. The justice system is not working. People who don't follow the news like most of the tech community are living in some dreamland of a system or treating it as a purely mental battle of optimism/pessimism vs. actually seeing what is happening.
- Natsu 6mo ago
  > judges have ruled 100s or 1000s of ICE detentions in various states illegal by now. None of that has stopped ICE from doing what it's doing. This is a weird one because ICE has lost so many habeas cases, mostly by dropping them, only for the 8th circuit court of appeals (which covers Minnesota) to overturn that the other day: https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/26/03/253248P.pdf https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/26/03/253248P.pdf There was similar precedent in the 5th circuit (Texas) previously, too, but that was not binding on Minnesota: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/26884355/ca5detention.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/26884355/ca5detention... So this is pretty weird now, legally, since a ton of lower courts have assumed things didn't work this way and the appeals courts are now saying they're wrong.
  - zaptheimpaler 6mo ago
    This is a case where a person who actually was illegally present is denied release on bond and the court sided with ICE. It does not address illegal detentions or deportations without hearings. There are countless other cases where people are detained despite providing evidence of legal status, of inhumane conditions in detention centers, of ICE directly ignoring court orders, of ICE agents on tape lying about people ramming their car and assaulting, detaining or killing them, of ICE releasing detainees without any of their possessions or IDs on the side of the road in freezing weather, and more.
brendoelfrendo 6mo ago
Trump or various departments of his administration have a 90% success rate with cases at the Supreme Court, as compared to a roughly 55-60% success rate at lower courts. The judiciary can still work, but the highest judiciary in the land is pretty soundly in his pocket. Trump's most significant defeat at the Supreme Court, overturning his signature tariffs policy, was viewed by some as a sign that the Supreme Court remained independent and defiant... but that's pretty clearly not the case, at least not up to this point.
jrflowers 6mo ago
And people say that posting isn’t art…
pnt12 6mo ago
I'm not an American but unfortunately I don't share the optimism. Your president shows time and time again he does what he wants, whether it's immoral or illegal or not within his power to do. And a majority turn a blind eye, especially his party. Some examples (correct me if I'm wrong): starting 2 wars; very questionable anti deportation methods by ICE; a DOGE that was ruthless and dumb; renaming a branch (ministry of war) in effect while in theory not having such power; pardoning crypto currencies pundits who have business with him; ties to pump and dump scams. Not to mention ties to Eppstein. My prediction: in a vendetta, because they chose to contradict him publicly, and his cronies will put high pressure to have anthropic out of everything touching the government, and any rebel will be fired for an unrelated cause. The high profile CEOs (those we were attending his inauguration) will avoid anthropic, lest they find their selves out of some profitable contract or in some unrelated tribunal issue. Anyone in his party will surely avoid them too.
- JKCalhoun 6mo ago
  Begging for forgiveness… The U.S. needs an ask permission President. (You can argue of course as to whether the U.S. ever had that.)
- mr_00ff00 6mo ago
  Anthropic is a good example of my point, judges are blocking that action. The president has always had these powers, starting wars hasn’t been a congressional power since World War II. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice were all police actions by the president. For the most part he can do what he wants at first, but the system eventually pulls back. It’s happened with ICE, it’s happened with Anthropic, it’s happened with interest rates and pressure to effect fed reserve chairs.
enoint 6mo ago
He’s never won a majority of the popular vote.
Hizonner 6mo ago
For a problem the size of Trump, the intended function of the institutions would have been removing him from office by now. Not to mention ignoring basically all of his more publicized executive orders (I don't know about more obscure ones). The judiciary sort of holding it together to issue orders that are mostly ignored is not the system working.
Tadpole9181 6mo ago
...what in the world... We have a war in Iran that was not approved by legislature. Run by a Fox news host with no experience who has committed multiple war crimes on camera now. A war we are not exactly winning (now raising the enlistment age and losing million dollar aircraft to thousand dollar drones), having an enormous and lasting impact on the global economy - making us look downright stupid. And position us to be unable to defend allies in the region, sure, but perhaps even other critical regions like Taiwan. We kidnapped a foreign leader and are talking about an invasion of Cuba - who we are committing human rights violations against by preventing them from having electricity. We have tariffs across all our prior allies. Multiple trade deals have been ruined. America's reputation is permanently damage. Well, more than that, Trump has threatened to invade Canada and Greenland. And apparently our (former) allies took it so seriously they had begun to develop new strategies and elevate their military preparedness and make security talks with their allies. And our "corporate stability" benefit is quickly falling apart as agencies and courts are rapidly being replaced with sycophants whose most important decree is "bribe or otherwise adorn dear leader with praise". Bills attempting to bring back manufacturing are dead. Infrastructure bills are dead. We're back to the rot. ICE is acting as a Gestapo, who show no badges and wear masks and plain clothes. They have killed multiple people and faced zero repercussions and has been expanded to airport security where they have already assaulted citizens. And that's before we get into the concentration camps. The president attempted a coup on our government in 2020, where he directed his supporters to storm the capital and stop the ratification of an election he lost - and faced absolutely no punishment. He is now nominating judges who are refusing to state in their Senate hearings that he lost the election. We have also passed a bill called SAVE that effectively makes creates a secret poll tax for married women, whose both cost and expediency are gated by a department directly controlled by the executive. That's if we even have a fair one, of course: Trump has floated numerous times cancelling the election in times of war or deploying armed ICE agents to key polling locations. He has made it very clear they cannot lose midterms. And that executive is vaporized. Trust in public careers has been killed by DOGE, alongside the careers and decades of knowledge and progress destroyed by them simply hammering apart institutions . The department of education is dead. The fed, one of the last and most important hold outs, is losing independence and will soon by led by a yes man who will blindly slash rates for Trump to enrish himself - at any cost for the economy. The SCOTUS, of which an entire third were placed by Trump - who is eyeing yet a fourth - have given Trump enormous wins, most famously the ruling that he is essentially immune from all laws and can do anything he wants. And they're looking like they may erode the state right to self-managed elections and/or ban mail-in votes. A ruling that essentially destroyed our ability to punish Trump for his colluding with a foreign nation to rig our democratic system with the help of the technofeudal corporations. Which, funny enough, brings us full circle to the war in Iran. Where his actions now allow him to stop all support for Ukraine and drop sanctions on Russia without people noticing all too much. Yet again, benefiting the crooks a significant portion of the intelligence community believe - including our own - compromise the now president. I cannot fathom how you can sit there and say that the system is "working". Has the frog seriously been sufficiently boiled? It was this easy? It's been one single year!
BugsJustFindMe 6mo ago
It's insane to to say that the system is working when the ones responsible for enforcing the laws are the ones who are ignoring the laws. A judge said. Uh huh. And what's the judge going to do when they ignore it like they've done so many times before? The Trump DOJ is still in violation of the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which was passed nearly-unanimously by Congress months ago, and continue to withhold content that implicates Trump in a child rape and sex trafficking ring.
tim333 6mo ago
I was cheered to see the Conservative Political Action Conference audience cheering for his impeachment a couple of days ago https://newrepublic.com/post/208293/cpac-attendees-confused-cheer-trump-impeachment https://newrepublic.com/post/208293/cpac-attendees-confused-... On the other hand you've got Bannon trying to sort a third trem.

cwillu 6mo ago

The question is not whether the walls can contain the bull until animal control arrives, but whether any china will remain intact.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
setsewerd 6mo ago
Given the iran situation I think china will be fine. (I'll show myself out)
kirubakaran 6mo ago
The bull comparison is a bit unfair to the bull, who didn't break any china at all in MythBusters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzw2iBmRsjs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzw2iBmRsjs
pjc50 6mo ago
It's more like the early bits of Jurassic Park: the T-Rex bashing away at the restraints while everyone assures you that they spared no expense to make it secure.

mxkopy 6mo ago

This is one ruling out of many, many of which directly benefit Trump. See Trump vs. United States 2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States There’s absolutely 0 reason to be optimistic towards a court stacked explicitly in his favor.

paulv 6mo ago

> that a majority voted for A majority of people who voted. Not a majority of eligible voters and certainly not a majority.

sillysaurusx 6mo ago
Are you saying that if all eligible voters were forced to vote, Trump may have lost the popular vote?
- paulv 6mo ago
  I'm saying that words have meanings and that it's important to be clear about what they are.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
- wafflemaker 6mo ago
  >Are you saying that if all eligible voters were forced to vote, Trump may have lost the popular vote? I've recently heard a commentary by a man with PhD in international relations* about why has Trump won the elections. Specialist said that a lot of people who would have voted against Trump didn't vote. That was due to many grave mistakes made by the democrats. Usually when populists win, it's because the other side blatantly ignores some public issues. This time it was economic hardships, immigration/border control. There is also the long trend of turning away from the working class and focusing on protecting/supporting the DEI people instead. The working class might feel betrayed and vote against them instead. "The cost of hubris" - as one of the Minmatar militia missions from Eve online was called.
  - d-cc 6mo ago
    Or there is mass neurocompromise. At least we have a pardon czar now. So many people have been coerced into committing crimes, with said coercion taking many different forms, there needs to be mass pardons across the board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Marie_Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Marie_Johnson everybody check her out.

zaptheimpaler 6mo ago

lol judges have ruled 100s or 1000s of ICE detentions in various states illegal by now. None of that has stopped ICE from doing what it's doing. This kind of optimism in the law seems naive today because there is no mechanism to actually enforce it. All federal agents have very substantial legal & civil immunity, heads of departments have immunity as well. The head of the legal system is Pam Bondi who isn't even prosecuting child rapists, or Donald Trump who is one. Even after Kristi Noem ruined countless lives and was responsible for deaths of innocent people, the only consequence she faced is being demoted to some made up job where she still gets paid to do nothing - no fine, no jail, not even being out of work, no accountability, no justice. None of the ICE agents involved have faced any consequences besides a leave either, we don't even know most of their names. The justice system is not working. People who don't follow the news like most of the tech community are living in some dreamland of a system or treating it as a purely mental battle of optimism/pessimism vs. actually seeing what is happening.

Natsu 6mo ago
> judges have ruled 100s or 1000s of ICE detentions in various states illegal by now. None of that has stopped ICE from doing what it's doing. This is a weird one because ICE has lost so many habeas cases, mostly by dropping them, only for the 8th circuit court of appeals (which covers Minnesota) to overturn that the other day: https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/26/03/253248P.pdf https://ecf.ca8.uscourts.gov/opndir/26/03/253248P.pdf There was similar precedent in the 5th circuit (Texas) previously, too, but that was not binding on Minnesota: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/26884355/ca5detention.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/26884355/ca5detention... So this is pretty weird now, legally, since a ton of lower courts have assumed things didn't work this way and the appeals courts are now saying they're wrong.
- zaptheimpaler 6mo ago
  This is a case where a person who actually was illegally present is denied release on bond and the court sided with ICE. It does not address illegal detentions or deportations without hearings. There are countless other cases where people are detained despite providing evidence of legal status, of inhumane conditions in detention centers, of ICE directly ignoring court orders, of ICE agents on tape lying about people ramming their car and assaulting, detaining or killing them, of ICE releasing detainees without any of their possessions or IDs on the side of the road in freezing weather, and more.

brendoelfrendo 6mo ago

Trump or various departments of his administration have a 90% success rate with cases at the Supreme Court, as compared to a roughly 55-60% success rate at lower courts. The judiciary can still work, but the highest judiciary in the land is pretty soundly in his pocket. Trump's most significant defeat at the Supreme Court, overturning his signature tariffs policy, was viewed by some as a sign that the Supreme Court remained independent and defiant... but that's pretty clearly not the case, at least not up to this point.

jrflowers 6mo ago

And people say that posting isn’t art…

pnt12 6mo ago

I'm not an American but unfortunately I don't share the optimism. Your president shows time and time again he does what he wants, whether it's immoral or illegal or not within his power to do. And a majority turn a blind eye, especially his party. Some examples (correct me if I'm wrong): starting 2 wars; very questionable anti deportation methods by ICE; a DOGE that was ruthless and dumb; renaming a branch (ministry of war) in effect while in theory not having such power; pardoning crypto currencies pundits who have business with him; ties to pump and dump scams. Not to mention ties to Eppstein. My prediction: in a vendetta, because they chose to contradict him publicly, and his cronies will put high pressure to have anthropic out of everything touching the government, and any rebel will be fired for an unrelated cause. The high profile CEOs (those we were attending his inauguration) will avoid anthropic, lest they find their selves out of some profitable contract or in some unrelated tribunal issue. Anyone in his party will surely avoid them too.

JKCalhoun 6mo ago
Begging for forgiveness… The U.S. needs an ask permission President. (You can argue of course as to whether the U.S. ever had that.)
mr_00ff00 6mo ago
Anthropic is a good example of my point, judges are blocking that action. The president has always had these powers, starting wars hasn’t been a congressional power since World War II. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice were all police actions by the president. For the most part he can do what he wants at first, but the system eventually pulls back. It’s happened with ICE, it’s happened with Anthropic, it’s happened with interest rates and pressure to effect fed reserve chairs.

enoint 6mo ago

He’s never won a majority of the popular vote.

Hizonner 6mo ago

For a problem the size of Trump, the intended function of the institutions would have been removing him from office by now. Not to mention ignoring basically all of his more publicized executive orders (I don't know about more obscure ones). The judiciary sort of holding it together to issue orders that are mostly ignored is not the system working.

Tadpole9181 6mo ago

...what in the world... We have a war in Iran that was not approved by legislature. Run by a Fox news host with no experience who has committed multiple war crimes on camera now. A war we are not exactly winning (now raising the enlistment age and losing million dollar aircraft to thousand dollar drones), having an enormous and lasting impact on the global economy - making us look downright stupid. And position us to be unable to defend allies in the region, sure, but perhaps even other critical regions like Taiwan. We kidnapped a foreign leader and are talking about an invasion of Cuba - who we are committing human rights violations against by preventing them from having electricity. We have tariffs across all our prior allies. Multiple trade deals have been ruined. America's reputation is permanently damage. Well, more than that, Trump has threatened to invade Canada and Greenland. And apparently our (former) allies took it so seriously they had begun to develop new strategies and elevate their military preparedness and make security talks with their allies. And our "corporate stability" benefit is quickly falling apart as agencies and courts are rapidly being replaced with sycophants whose most important decree is "bribe or otherwise adorn dear leader with praise". Bills attempting to bring back manufacturing are dead. Infrastructure bills are dead. We're back to the rot. ICE is acting as a Gestapo, who show no badges and wear masks and plain clothes. They have killed multiple people and faced zero repercussions and has been expanded to airport security where they have already assaulted citizens. And that's before we get into the concentration camps. The president attempted a coup on our government in 2020, where he directed his supporters to storm the capital and stop the ratification of an election he lost - and faced absolutely no punishment. He is now nominating judges who are refusing to state in their Senate hearings that he lost the election. We have also passed a bill called SAVE that effectively makes creates a secret poll tax for married women, whose both cost and expediency are gated by a department directly controlled by the executive. That's if we even have a fair one, of course: Trump has floated numerous times cancelling the election in times of war or deploying armed ICE agents to key polling locations. He has made it very clear they cannot lose midterms. And that executive is vaporized. Trust in public careers has been killed by DOGE, alongside the careers and decades of knowledge and progress destroyed by them simply hammering apart institutions . The department of education is dead. The fed, one of the last and most important hold outs, is losing independence and will soon by led by a yes man who will blindly slash rates for Trump to enrish himself - at any cost for the economy. The SCOTUS, of which an entire third were placed by Trump - who is eyeing yet a fourth - have given Trump enormous wins, most famously the ruling that he is essentially immune from all laws and can do anything he wants. And they're looking like they may erode the state right to self-managed elections and/or ban mail-in votes. A ruling that essentially destroyed our ability to punish Trump for his colluding with a foreign nation to rig our democratic system with the help of the technofeudal corporations. Which, funny enough, brings us full circle to the war in Iran. Where his actions now allow him to stop all support for Ukraine and drop sanctions on Russia without people noticing all too much. Yet again, benefiting the crooks a significant portion of the intelligence community believe - including our own - compromise the now president. I cannot fathom how you can sit there and say that the system is "working". Has the frog seriously been sufficiently boiled? It was this easy? It's been one single year!

BugsJustFindMe 6mo ago

It's insane to to say that the system is working when the ones responsible for enforcing the laws are the ones who are ignoring the laws. A judge said. Uh huh. And what's the judge going to do when they ignore it like they've done so many times before? The Trump DOJ is still in violation of the Epstein Files Transparency Act, which was passed nearly-unanimously by Congress months ago, and continue to withhold content that implicates Trump in a child rape and sex trafficking ring.

tim333 6mo ago

I was cheered to see the Conservative Political Action Conference audience cheering for his impeachment a couple of days ago https://newrepublic.com/post/208293/cpac-attendees-confused-cheer-trump-impeachment https://newrepublic.com/post/208293/cpac-attendees-confused-... On the other hand you've got Bannon trying to sort a third trem.