6 ms·

I think you're falling for Sticker Swap Fallacy. The goal is to have fair match-ups in sports. Gender and sex are two possible labels to use to assist with this

I think you're falling for Sticker Swap Fallacy. The goal is to have fair match-ups in sports. Gender and sex are two possible labels to use to assist with this, but they're imperfect enough that we probably ought to not use them as the primary differentiator. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/C7LcpRtrHiKJRoAEp/sticker-shortcut-fallacy-the-real-worst-argument-in-the https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/C7LcpRtrHiKJRoAEp/sticker-sh...

kelseyfrog 6mo ago
The solution is simple: class every sport like boxing. Pick a sports-relevant metric and split into divisions. Some sports will naturally fall into gendered divisions, while others will have varying degrees of co-ed competition among competitors of similar ability. The way out of this is not to pick a better scissor of sex or gender, it's to pick a better scissor of ability.
- 2muchcoffeeman 6mo ago
  Doesn’t Boxing use weight classes?
  - lbreakjai 6mo ago
    Weight classes within gender classes. Women would have no chance to compete against men of identical weight, all else equal. Men have more lean mass.
    - kelseyfrog 6mo ago
      Sounds like lean mass would be the right way to structure divisions then.
      - fourseventy 6mo ago
        Men are stronger, faster, have more dense bones, have bigger lungs, bigger hands, etc, etc, etc. Men and women are different in hundreds of ways it's not just 'lean body mass'. Men are better at sports than women. Do you even live in reality? Have you ever completed in anything in your life?
        kelseyfrog 6mo ago
        Then create those divisions. Please be rational.
        baumy 6mo ago
        Good lord. Absolutely nobody is going to watch boxing divisions based on lung size and bone density. Did you actually think that lean mass would be a sensible way to separate divisions in a gender neutral fashion? That would, again, just result in women being unable to compete professionally in virtually any sport. They would be relegated to Division N, for some very large value of N. Competing alongside multitudes of biologically male amateurs, where nobody cares and nobody pays to watch. To even entertain this idea betrays a total lack of understanding of the matter at hand. Right now you are acting like Elon Musk storming into the government and having 20 year olds cut everybody's budget. You may think you're coming in with fresh outsider perspective and an open minded way to look at things and improve them, but everyone actually involved in the domain can see a trainwreck in progress. It's not a good look. I am quite certain it's not your intention, but you're really coming across as someone who hates women's sports, and doesn't want them to exist. On behalf of my wife and sister and a lot of the women I've known in a lifetime of playing sports - kindly keep your awful ideas to yourself. Women fought tooth and nail for the right to have their own professional sporting opportunities. Don't you dare try to take it away from them.
        kelseyfrog 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        machomaster 6mo ago
        And then you get a situation with as many divisions as there are people and everyone get a gold medal, everyone is a winner. The true woke paradise. Fortunately, most people don't like to live in this hell and are against clear attempts to destroy women's sports by the clueless and/or purposefully malicious activists.
        mr_mitm 6mo ago
- baumy 6mo ago
  This "solution" can really only be proposed by someone who has not played sports. This would simply result in women being unable to compete in sports professionally, outside of a couple small niches like ultra long distance swimming and a couple sub-disciplines of gymnastics. I do not consider that to be a good thing.
  - kelseyfrog 6mo ago
    It really depends on the way classes are divided. Dismissing the general concept demonstrates a fear of change rather than a legitimate openness to fair play.
    - baumy 6mo ago
      No it doesn't, and no it doesn't. Proposing this concept demonstrates a profound ignorance of what competition at the top level of sports actually looks like. The concept is just bad, unless your goal is to prevent women from being able to make a living playing professional sports.
      - kelseyfrog 6mo ago
        The thing is, we're already using a scissor for ability, just a poor one with the exact problem you describe - it renders trans women unable to make a living playing professional sports. Throwing one group under the bus for another cannot be avoided so long as sex or gender are part of sports divisions. Please let go of the need for this.
        baumy 6mo ago
        You are clearly out of your depth. Have you ever competed in high level sports? Please don't speak on things you know nothing about. It takes a lot of gall to tell someone 'please let go of the need for this' when they are pointing this out. I will do no such thing, but I likely will give up trying to educate you. I won't respond further unless you pick an example sport, and propose how your "scissor for ability" would work, in concrete detail. If you do this, I will be happy to explain why this would result in neither women _nor trans women_ having any chance to make a living as professional athletes.
- fourseventy 6mo ago
  Dude, men are better than women at virtually every single sport. What are you talking about.

kelseyfrog 6mo ago

The solution is simple: class every sport like boxing. Pick a sports-relevant metric and split into divisions. Some sports will naturally fall into gendered divisions, while others will have varying degrees of co-ed competition among competitors of similar ability. The way out of this is not to pick a better scissor of sex or gender, it's to pick a better scissor of ability.

2muchcoffeeman 6mo ago
Doesn’t Boxing use weight classes?
- lbreakjai 6mo ago
  Weight classes within gender classes. Women would have no chance to compete against men of identical weight, all else equal. Men have more lean mass.
  - kelseyfrog 6mo ago
    Sounds like lean mass would be the right way to structure divisions then.
    - fourseventy 6mo ago
      Men are stronger, faster, have more dense bones, have bigger lungs, bigger hands, etc, etc, etc. Men and women are different in hundreds of ways it's not just 'lean body mass'. Men are better at sports than women. Do you even live in reality? Have you ever completed in anything in your life?
      - kelseyfrog 6mo ago
        Then create those divisions. Please be rational.
        baumy 6mo ago
        Good lord. Absolutely nobody is going to watch boxing divisions based on lung size and bone density. Did you actually think that lean mass would be a sensible way to separate divisions in a gender neutral fashion? That would, again, just result in women being unable to compete professionally in virtually any sport. They would be relegated to Division N, for some very large value of N. Competing alongside multitudes of biologically male amateurs, where nobody cares and nobody pays to watch. To even entertain this idea betrays a total lack of understanding of the matter at hand. Right now you are acting like Elon Musk storming into the government and having 20 year olds cut everybody's budget. You may think you're coming in with fresh outsider perspective and an open minded way to look at things and improve them, but everyone actually involved in the domain can see a trainwreck in progress. It's not a good look. I am quite certain it's not your intention, but you're really coming across as someone who hates women's sports, and doesn't want them to exist. On behalf of my wife and sister and a lot of the women I've known in a lifetime of playing sports - kindly keep your awful ideas to yourself. Women fought tooth and nail for the right to have their own professional sporting opportunities. Don't you dare try to take it away from them.
        kelseyfrog 6mo ago
        [flagged]
        machomaster 6mo ago
        And then you get a situation with as many divisions as there are people and everyone get a gold medal, everyone is a winner. The true woke paradise. Fortunately, most people don't like to live in this hell and are against clear attempts to destroy women's sports by the clueless and/or purposefully malicious activists.
        mr_mitm 6mo ago
baumy 6mo ago
This "solution" can really only be proposed by someone who has not played sports. This would simply result in women being unable to compete in sports professionally, outside of a couple small niches like ultra long distance swimming and a couple sub-disciplines of gymnastics. I do not consider that to be a good thing.
- kelseyfrog 6mo ago
  It really depends on the way classes are divided. Dismissing the general concept demonstrates a fear of change rather than a legitimate openness to fair play.
  - baumy 6mo ago
    No it doesn't, and no it doesn't. Proposing this concept demonstrates a profound ignorance of what competition at the top level of sports actually looks like. The concept is just bad, unless your goal is to prevent women from being able to make a living playing professional sports.
    - kelseyfrog 6mo ago
      The thing is, we're already using a scissor for ability, just a poor one with the exact problem you describe - it renders trans women unable to make a living playing professional sports. Throwing one group under the bus for another cannot be avoided so long as sex or gender are part of sports divisions. Please let go of the need for this.
      - baumy 6mo ago
        You are clearly out of your depth. Have you ever competed in high level sports? Please don't speak on things you know nothing about. It takes a lot of gall to tell someone 'please let go of the need for this' when they are pointing this out. I will do no such thing, but I likely will give up trying to educate you. I won't respond further unless you pick an example sport, and propose how your "scissor for ability" would work, in concrete detail. If you do this, I will be happy to explain why this would result in neither women _nor trans women_ having any chance to make a living as professional athletes.
fourseventy 6mo ago
Dude, men are better than women at virtually every single sport. What are you talking about.