5 ms·

At some point later I got around to playing with DC fast charging ... That market still has a long way to go as far as sorting out its business model, as billin

At some point later I got around to playing with DC fast charging ... That market still has a long way to go as far as sorting out its business model, as billing based on time vs energy is completely unfair ... An excuse that's offered less and less often is that pricing by kilowatt-hours delivered is prohibited in some states by utility regulatory rules. I didn't know they were billing for DC charging in the US based on Time instead of kwh. Thats odd. In Europe its just kwh.

ranguna 6mo ago
In Europe, sometimes it's just kWh, other times it's kWh and time. After charging is done, it's just time.
rcxdude 6mo ago
Arguably it should be both. Sitting and occupying a DC fast charging booth, especially once you're not charging at the full rate, represents an opportunity cost since someone else could be using it.
- hvb2 6mo ago
  > especially once you're not charging at the full rate I don't think you want that as no car will be able to charge at 250kW for very long for example. And I believe we're starting to see even higher peak charging rates. As always, there's no simple answers
- cjrp 6mo ago
  I used a Tesla charger (as a non-Tesla driver) recently. I think their pricing model is pretty good: pay per kWh (varies between peak and off-peak), and if the station is busy they can impose a "congestion charge" for anyone occupying a charger and not charging, or charging above 80% when it's not necessary for their journey (presumably only works for Teslas where the satnav knows about your journey and charge locations).
- Jeremy1026 6mo ago
  Idle rates are different than just straight charged by time.
bojan 6mo ago
> In Europe its just kwh. In the EU, yes. When you go to those dark corners of Europe that never achieved the membership, all bets are off. In Montenegro and Serbia they charge per minute because the only entity allowed to sell kwh's is the national electricity company (in Serbia it's owned by Russia, so it is heavily legally protected).
- close04 6mo ago
  No need to go further than dead center EU to see chargers where the cost has a time component, and an energy component, and even a (small) one time fee. Sometimes the charger is inside a paid parking, there that comes on top. These aren't shady operators either either, just the way they saw fit to prevent abuse and make more money. Some have reasonable limits to prevent abuse [0], others just charge the customer as much as they can get away with. [0] https://www.tanke.io/oeffentliche-ladestationen/ https://www.tanke.io/oeffentliche-ladestationen/
  - GCUMstlyHarmls 6mo ago
    Is abuse here just parking in the charger and leaving for a few hours, assumingly skipping any parking fee if you're only paying for kWh?
    - margalabargala 6mo ago
      Abuse means leaving your car parked while it is not actively charging. Fine to leave for a few hours if your car needs a few hours to charge fully. Not fine to leave for a few hours if your car was 15 minutes from full.
- spockz 6mo ago
  In Italy there are enough chargers that charge for both kWh and time connected. kWh for what you use and connected to discourage being connected all the time.
a96 6mo ago
I think fast chargers in rush hour times will also bill for time to discourage long/slow charges on them. Naturally that'll vary on whoever sets the costs, but it does exist in EU as well.
StilesCrisis 6mo ago
I've never paid by the minute. Tesla Superchargers often deliver less energy per minute when they're busy (sometimes much less!) and it would be frustrating if they charged per-minute. Other systems I've seen (Chargepoint) also seem to be energy-based. The Supercharger network is well done. It's a shame that they took this long to open up to other car models because they really do get a lot of things right.
- gausswho 6mo ago
  Careful. Some superchargers will now charge you extra per minute as soon as you cross 80% capacity (regardless of your charge limit).
  - jerlam 6mo ago
    Does this also apply to non-Teslas? I'm guessing there's a bit of two-way communication from car to charger, for authentication/billing purposes but also for congestion fees like charging beyond 80%. Does the app notify you to take your car off the charger? I understand the reasoning but sympathize with the luddites who shun all this technology. Imagine going on a road trip with your EV, stopping for a bite to eat and refresh while putting your car on the charger. Maybe there was a long line or you needed a long bathroom stop, so your car sits at the charger "too long" and you get a nice penalty.
dyauspitr 6mo ago
I’ve charged in 30 states, it’s kwh every single time.
- bluGill 6mo ago
  Mowt states have changed the laws in the past 10 years. When nobody (other that lead acid convestions done at home) had an ev it did't matter that the law didn't allow for charging by kwh as nobody other than a utility wanted to do that anyway. When evs changed to mainstream laws changed. There are still some free public chargers near me from before the law change (at 6kw max charge rate they not often used and so don't cost them much to keep it.
  - joeyh 6mo ago
    Amusingly, the only DCFCs near me that charge by time and not kwh are run by utilities.
ubertaco 6mo ago
It's almost all by the kWh here, but perusing PlugShare I've seen a few level 2 chargers here and there that charge by the minute. Usually that's a sign of a charger that was set up a while ago and is owned by someone who hasn't checked on it since.
izacus 6mo ago
Nah, there's plenty of places that will require you pay both kWh and time spent on the charger. And the app situation is as dire as the author says too.
Jeremy1026 6mo ago
It's rare to be billed on time, its usually billed by energy delivered.
lencastre 6mo ago
nope, some places in Belgium and Austria are per minute. I guessimate that the charge speed is frickin’ fast, no way to be sure and I would rather see kW number go up in the dasboard
stetrain 6mo ago
My understanding is that some US states have regulations against selling power by the kWh unless you are a registered power utility. This is an old regulation meant to be about landlords marking up electric rates to tenants etc. Most states have updated their laws to account for EV charging providers, and in those states we pay per kWh.
yardie 6mo ago
In some states, like Georgia, you are considered an electric company if you bill in kWhs. So some DCFC companies simply billed in the time equivalent. $0.30/min-$0.50/min.
pjc50 6mo ago
Later on ( https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/ev/dcfc/app-problem.html https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/ev/dcfc/app-problem.h... ) he talks about the app problem, and I believe the UK and possibly the EU are mandating that chargers must support contactless payment, so you can just do it with your regular bank card.
bdcravens 6mo ago
I know Electrify America used to, but in recent years, I haven't come across any time-based chargers (but I haven't used a charger outside of Texas since 2022, so may be an issue in only certain states, as other comments have alluded to)
ezfe 6mo ago
Time based billing is almost completely eliminated. It was always state-by-state, due to local laws not being setup for dispensing of electricity as a business model.

ranguna 6mo ago

In Europe, sometimes it's just kWh, other times it's kWh and time. After charging is done, it's just time.

rcxdude 6mo ago

Arguably it should be both. Sitting and occupying a DC fast charging booth, especially once you're not charging at the full rate, represents an opportunity cost since someone else could be using it.

hvb2 6mo ago
> especially once you're not charging at the full rate I don't think you want that as no car will be able to charge at 250kW for very long for example. And I believe we're starting to see even higher peak charging rates. As always, there's no simple answers
cjrp 6mo ago
I used a Tesla charger (as a non-Tesla driver) recently. I think their pricing model is pretty good: pay per kWh (varies between peak and off-peak), and if the station is busy they can impose a "congestion charge" for anyone occupying a charger and not charging, or charging above 80% when it's not necessary for their journey (presumably only works for Teslas where the satnav knows about your journey and charge locations).
Jeremy1026 6mo ago
Idle rates are different than just straight charged by time.

bojan 6mo ago

> In Europe its just kwh. In the EU, yes. When you go to those dark corners of Europe that never achieved the membership, all bets are off. In Montenegro and Serbia they charge per minute because the only entity allowed to sell kwh's is the national electricity company (in Serbia it's owned by Russia, so it is heavily legally protected).

close04 6mo ago
No need to go further than dead center EU to see chargers where the cost has a time component, and an energy component, and even a (small) one time fee. Sometimes the charger is inside a paid parking, there that comes on top. These aren't shady operators either either, just the way they saw fit to prevent abuse and make more money. Some have reasonable limits to prevent abuse [0], others just charge the customer as much as they can get away with. [0] https://www.tanke.io/oeffentliche-ladestationen/ https://www.tanke.io/oeffentliche-ladestationen/
- GCUMstlyHarmls 6mo ago
  Is abuse here just parking in the charger and leaving for a few hours, assumingly skipping any parking fee if you're only paying for kWh?
  - margalabargala 6mo ago
    Abuse means leaving your car parked while it is not actively charging. Fine to leave for a few hours if your car needs a few hours to charge fully. Not fine to leave for a few hours if your car was 15 minutes from full.
spockz 6mo ago
In Italy there are enough chargers that charge for both kWh and time connected. kWh for what you use and connected to discourage being connected all the time.

a96 6mo ago

I think fast chargers in rush hour times will also bill for time to discourage long/slow charges on them. Naturally that'll vary on whoever sets the costs, but it does exist in EU as well.

StilesCrisis 6mo ago

I've never paid by the minute. Tesla Superchargers often deliver less energy per minute when they're busy (sometimes much less!) and it would be frustrating if they charged per-minute. Other systems I've seen (Chargepoint) also seem to be energy-based. The Supercharger network is well done. It's a shame that they took this long to open up to other car models because they really do get a lot of things right.

gausswho 6mo ago
Careful. Some superchargers will now charge you extra per minute as soon as you cross 80% capacity (regardless of your charge limit).
- jerlam 6mo ago
  Does this also apply to non-Teslas? I'm guessing there's a bit of two-way communication from car to charger, for authentication/billing purposes but also for congestion fees like charging beyond 80%. Does the app notify you to take your car off the charger? I understand the reasoning but sympathize with the luddites who shun all this technology. Imagine going on a road trip with your EV, stopping for a bite to eat and refresh while putting your car on the charger. Maybe there was a long line or you needed a long bathroom stop, so your car sits at the charger "too long" and you get a nice penalty.

dyauspitr 6mo ago

I’ve charged in 30 states, it’s kwh every single time.

bluGill 6mo ago
Mowt states have changed the laws in the past 10 years. When nobody (other that lead acid convestions done at home) had an ev it did't matter that the law didn't allow for charging by kwh as nobody other than a utility wanted to do that anyway. When evs changed to mainstream laws changed. There are still some free public chargers near me from before the law change (at 6kw max charge rate they not often used and so don't cost them much to keep it.
- joeyh 6mo ago
  Amusingly, the only DCFCs near me that charge by time and not kwh are run by utilities.

ubertaco 6mo ago

It's almost all by the kWh here, but perusing PlugShare I've seen a few level 2 chargers here and there that charge by the minute. Usually that's a sign of a charger that was set up a while ago and is owned by someone who hasn't checked on it since.

izacus 6mo ago

Nah, there's plenty of places that will require you pay both kWh and time spent on the charger. And the app situation is as dire as the author says too.

Jeremy1026 6mo ago

It's rare to be billed on time, its usually billed by energy delivered.

lencastre 6mo ago

nope, some places in Belgium and Austria are per minute. I guessimate that the charge speed is frickin’ fast, no way to be sure and I would rather see kW number go up in the dasboard

stetrain 6mo ago

My understanding is that some US states have regulations against selling power by the kWh unless you are a registered power utility. This is an old regulation meant to be about landlords marking up electric rates to tenants etc. Most states have updated their laws to account for EV charging providers, and in those states we pay per kWh.

yardie 6mo ago

In some states, like Georgia, you are considered an electric company if you bill in kWhs. So some DCFC companies simply billed in the time equivalent. $0.30/min-$0.50/min.

pjc50 6mo ago

Later on ( https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/ev/dcfc/app-problem.html https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/ev/dcfc/app-problem.h... ) he talks about the app problem, and I believe the UK and possibly the EU are mandating that chargers must support contactless payment, so you can just do it with your regular bank card.

bdcravens 6mo ago

I know Electrify America used to, but in recent years, I haven't come across any time-based chargers (but I haven't used a charger outside of Texas since 2022, so may be an issue in only certain states, as other comments have alluded to)

ezfe 6mo ago

Time based billing is almost completely eliminated. It was always state-by-state, due to local laws not being setup for dispensing of electricity as a business model.