8 ms·

Two Weeks Until Tapeout

194 points by client4 8mo ago

malwrar 8mo ago
Incredible dive into something I’ve only dreamed of doing, this post is definitely one of my favorites. If the author is reading this, would love to know where you got those chairs!
SV_BubbleTime 8mo ago
> So when the opportunity arose to join an experimental shuttle using global foundries 180nm for FREE I jumped onto the opportunity and designed my own JTAG! In case anyone wants a preview of what to expect.
- random_duck 8mo ago
  > Because the official JTAG spec lives behind the impregnable IEEE paywall, a castle in which I am not permitted to set foot as a result of not having paid its lord my dues, the verification of the JTAG TAP was actually quite interesting.
CrispinS 8mo ago
The thing I love about blog posts like these is how it reminds me that the tech world is a vast ocean that encompasses so many disciplines; it's not all full stack web development. Related: I did not understand 95% of what she wrote.
- tucnak 8mo ago
  I wrote here a couple days ago: "For a Hacker News degenerate, everything in the world revolves around bean-counting B2B SaaS CRUD crapps, but it doesn't mean it's all there is to the world, right?"
  - mcny 8mo ago
    I didn't even know that 180nm was still a thing but clearly it is because apparently the cost difference is like USD 100M for 180nm vs USD 10B or more for the latest tech? Is it true that we will likely have these 180nm chips for things like light bulbs for the foreseeable future?
    - caisley 8mo ago
      Yes, actually 180 nm still represents a sizable amount of the market, in terms of volume! In more niche applications where chips contain lots of analog functionlity, you can still find plenty of designs being done in 180, 130, 110, and 65 nm. Most corporate designs don't disclose this, but I'd venture to guess the majority of integrated circuits in your home are made on these larger "process nodes". I work in 65nm and 130nm, for example. Free to ask if you want to know more!
      - tucnak 8mo ago
        I'm not OP, but perhaps you, or somebody else here, could answer my question, albeit one that is slightly off-topic. In the recent years, in part courtesy of cryptoindustry investment, there were many advancements in zero-knowledge mathematics and applied cryptography. I've been on-and-off researching computational approaches to liquid democracy[1], on the off-chance that we may one day apply it in my country, Ukraine, and I came to conclusion that open hardware-as-public good are table stakes to that end. The modern computers are way too complex, and the trust in them is at an all-time low. To bring computation into politics—it's a tall order. However, if we could buy a fab, design some hardware transparently, allow inspections from civil groups and scientists, maybe that could work... What kind of costs are we looking at for establishing something like 130nm process, and would it be possible to buy out the necessary IP, too, so that everything could be done in the open? Does this even work longterm? I'd like to think transparent-by-design hardware manufacturing is not a pipe dream, but if that's the case, I would hate to give it too much thought. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
        random_duck 8mo ago
- random_duck 8mo ago
  True, someone needs to build that computer after all.
- pjc50 8mo ago
  On some of my cover letters I wrote "full stack from the transistors upwards", because at one point or another I have shipped code in: - IC design software (at a startup bought by Cadence) - an IC (contract out of Dallas semi) - FPGA HFT acceleration - fixing some OS drivers for Windows CE - finding a compiler bug - various bits of embedded firmware in C and assembly for various platforms - debugging with a scope - desktop applications - a web server (defunct ZWS) - web apps (Perl. Long time ago) Somehow I've never written a react app.
  - choilive 8mo ago
    > Somehow I've never written a react app. Count your blessings.
    - random_duck 8mo ago
      lol
  - elevation 8mo ago
    When I first came to HN, I didn't know what `hn`, `pg`, or other initialisms meant. But I saw people boasting in the new vocabulary of "full stack developer." And I assumed that if companies loved "javascript down to redis" that they would really love that I could do front end all the way down to embedded development. Think of the problems all my full stack knowledge could solve! Never got an offer through "who's hiring" though.
saidinesh5 8mo ago
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many of the tools involved in the Tiny Tapeout project are available open source? Especially in the project roadmap section.. The licences for proprietary EDA tools are very expensive it seems and most EDA people i talked to didn't really care for any open source tools - as their companies paid for the licenses.
- random_duck 8mo ago
  You can do the entire project roadmap with entirely open source tools and all the tiny tapeout tools are open source.
- caisley 8mo ago
  You're right that most professional designers historically haven't cared about open source tooling. But this is starting to change, largely because of the recent existence of open PDKs and the creation of better open tools like OpenROAD. I am a PhD student working in chip design, and about 90% of my work is done using open tools. You can see an image of one chip here, for example. https://github.com/kcaisley/frida https://github.com/kcaisley/frida
smi-nvidia 8mo ago
[dead]
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
criemen 8mo ago
> aka: For those not living in 2026, we have uncovered a new clue to the mystery of where all the low-power DRAM chips have suddenly vanished to! I love the writing style!
chaosprint 8mo ago
some of my favorite projects from tiny tapeout: https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt05/tt_um_rejunity_sn76489 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt05/tt_um_rejunity_sn76489 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt07/tt_um_rejunity_ay8913 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt07/tt_um_rejunity_ay8913 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt04/tt_um_morningjava_top https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt04/tt_um_morningjava_top
- random_duck 8mo ago
  How to tell us you have a thing for sound generators, without telling us you have a thing for sound generators. Cool list !
lizknope 8mo ago
I've probably worked on 70 chips over the last 30 years. Tape out time always sucks. I'm in physical design which is fixing all the timing violations, DRC violations, LVS errors, and dealing with late design changes. Working 80 to 100 hours a week for a month really sucks and makes you wonder why you didn't go into software. When you combine it with a fixed shuttle date like in the article it is even worse because if you miss that date it might be another 1-2 months for the next shuttle instead of just a day for day slip when you control all the masks.
- dkasper 8mo ago
  Don’t worry we have those 80 hour weeks in software too. I can think of a few examples. For example with mobile App Store review time used to be kind of like that. You submitted your app waited a few business days and prayed there wasn’t an obscure rejection that lead to an appeal which could take even longer. Very stressful when you are cueing up a launch and press releases on a certain date. you had to make sure you were done a few weeks in advance to account for everything. I don’t work much on apps anymore but I hear it’s somewhat better now. Another big area is compliance, those processes can take forever.
- caisley 8mo ago
  Can I ask how often you guys end up doing gate-level netlist ECOs, instead of re-running synthesis when you're close to a deadline? Also, post-fabrication, if a mistake is found, have you been able to fix it just with a new M1 or M2 mask, instead of paying for a full new mask set?
  - lizknope 8mo ago
    If the change is under 1000 logic cells and no new flip flops then we do a it as an ECO. If there are tons of new flip flops we resynthesize and start over. Lots of chips have metal spins to fix errors. The blank areas of the chips are filled with filler cells but most of them are special "ECOFILLER" cells that are basically generic pairs of N/P transistors like a gate array. These can then be turned into any kind of cell just by using metal. They are a little slower but work fine. I've worked at one huge company where they planned 3 full base layer mask sets and 1-2 metal spins for each full base layer set. This was when doing a chip on a brand new process node where you couldn't always trust the models the fab gave you so you wanted more post silicon characterization to recalibrate models.
robinsonb5 8mo ago
A hugely entertaining blog post, despite subject matter that could easily result in very dry reading.
williadc 8mo ago
I'm shocked that SRAMs would be considered a luxury item for open silicon. They're essential for building anything that would be commercially viable, since area is far from free.
SilverElfin 8mo ago
As someone who isn’t familiar with the deep details of the hardware side of the AI industry, I’m curious if these chips are “easy” to write AI software for, or if there is a big barrier. How significant is Nvidia’s moat on the software layer, which I often see talked about in articles, when people seem to be willing to adopt AI accelerators. And if AI accelerators can be adopted, why aren’t other competitors to Nvidia (AMD, Intel, etc) able to break in?
lesser-shadow 8mo ago
As a person that is using Librelane daily in their workflow, why did they skip Gate-level simulation? Iverilog won't ensure the circuit works after tapeout, CVC most likely will. SDF-annotated simulation actually shows data hazards, as well as transistor timings. https://librelane.readthedocs.io/en/latest/usage/timing_closure/index.html https://librelane.readthedocs.io/en/latest/usage/timing_clos...
- random_duck 8mo ago
  > Once again, I used Cocotb as the abstracting layer allowing me to interface with multiple different simulators. Namely, icarus verilog for my standard verification and CVC for the post implementation timing annotated netlist.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]

194 points by client4 8mo ago

Incredible dive into something I’ve only dreamed of doing, this post is definitely one of my favorites. If the author is reading this, would love to know where you got those chairs!

SV_BubbleTime 8mo ago

> So when the opportunity arose to join an experimental shuttle using global foundries 180nm for FREE I jumped onto the opportunity and designed my own JTAG! In case anyone wants a preview of what to expect.

random_duck 8mo ago
> Because the official JTAG spec lives behind the impregnable IEEE paywall, a castle in which I am not permitted to set foot as a result of not having paid its lord my dues, the verification of the JTAG TAP was actually quite interesting.

CrispinS 8mo ago

The thing I love about blog posts like these is how it reminds me that the tech world is a vast ocean that encompasses so many disciplines; it's not all full stack web development. Related: I did not understand 95% of what she wrote.

tucnak 8mo ago
I wrote here a couple days ago: "For a Hacker News degenerate, everything in the world revolves around bean-counting B2B SaaS CRUD crapps, but it doesn't mean it's all there is to the world, right?"
- mcny 8mo ago
  I didn't even know that 180nm was still a thing but clearly it is because apparently the cost difference is like USD 100M for 180nm vs USD 10B or more for the latest tech? Is it true that we will likely have these 180nm chips for things like light bulbs for the foreseeable future?
  - caisley 8mo ago
    Yes, actually 180 nm still represents a sizable amount of the market, in terms of volume! In more niche applications where chips contain lots of analog functionlity, you can still find plenty of designs being done in 180, 130, 110, and 65 nm. Most corporate designs don't disclose this, but I'd venture to guess the majority of integrated circuits in your home are made on these larger "process nodes". I work in 65nm and 130nm, for example. Free to ask if you want to know more!
    - tucnak 8mo ago
      I'm not OP, but perhaps you, or somebody else here, could answer my question, albeit one that is slightly off-topic. In the recent years, in part courtesy of cryptoindustry investment, there were many advancements in zero-knowledge mathematics and applied cryptography. I've been on-and-off researching computational approaches to liquid democracy[1], on the off-chance that we may one day apply it in my country, Ukraine, and I came to conclusion that open hardware-as-public good are table stakes to that end. The modern computers are way too complex, and the trust in them is at an all-time low. To bring computation into politics—it's a tall order. However, if we could buy a fab, design some hardware transparently, allow inspections from civil groups and scientists, maybe that could work... What kind of costs are we looking at for establishing something like 130nm process, and would it be possible to buy out the necessary IP, too, so that everything could be done in the open? Does this even work longterm? I'd like to think transparent-by-design hardware manufacturing is not a pipe dream, but if that's the case, I would hate to give it too much thought. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
      - random_duck 8mo ago
random_duck 8mo ago
True, someone needs to build that computer after all.
pjc50 8mo ago
On some of my cover letters I wrote "full stack from the transistors upwards", because at one point or another I have shipped code in: - IC design software (at a startup bought by Cadence) - an IC (contract out of Dallas semi) - FPGA HFT acceleration - fixing some OS drivers for Windows CE - finding a compiler bug - various bits of embedded firmware in C and assembly for various platforms - debugging with a scope - desktop applications - a web server (defunct ZWS) - web apps (Perl. Long time ago) Somehow I've never written a react app.
- choilive 8mo ago
  > Somehow I've never written a react app. Count your blessings.
  - random_duck 8mo ago
    lol
- elevation 8mo ago
  When I first came to HN, I didn't know what `hn`, `pg`, or other initialisms meant. But I saw people boasting in the new vocabulary of "full stack developer." And I assumed that if companies loved "javascript down to redis" that they would really love that I could do front end all the way down to embedded development. Think of the problems all my full stack knowledge could solve! Never got an offer through "who's hiring" though.

saidinesh5 8mo ago

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many of the tools involved in the Tiny Tapeout project are available open source? Especially in the project roadmap section.. The licences for proprietary EDA tools are very expensive it seems and most EDA people i talked to didn't really care for any open source tools - as their companies paid for the licenses.

random_duck 8mo ago
You can do the entire project roadmap with entirely open source tools and all the tiny tapeout tools are open source.
caisley 8mo ago
You're right that most professional designers historically haven't cared about open source tooling. But this is starting to change, largely because of the recent existence of open PDKs and the creation of better open tools like OpenROAD. I am a PhD student working in chip design, and about 90% of my work is done using open tools. You can see an image of one chip here, for example. https://github.com/kcaisley/frida https://github.com/kcaisley/frida

smi-nvidia 8mo ago

[dead]

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

criemen 8mo ago

> aka: For those not living in 2026, we have uncovered a new clue to the mystery of where all the low-power DRAM chips have suddenly vanished to! I love the writing style!

chaosprint 8mo ago

some of my favorite projects from tiny tapeout: https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt05/tt_um_rejunity_sn76489 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt05/tt_um_rejunity_sn76489 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt07/tt_um_rejunity_ay8913 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt07/tt_um_rejunity_ay8913 https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt04/tt_um_morningjava_top https://tinytapeout.com/chips/tt04/tt_um_morningjava_top

random_duck 8mo ago
How to tell us you have a thing for sound generators, without telling us you have a thing for sound generators. Cool list !

lizknope 8mo ago

I've probably worked on 70 chips over the last 30 years. Tape out time always sucks. I'm in physical design which is fixing all the timing violations, DRC violations, LVS errors, and dealing with late design changes. Working 80 to 100 hours a week for a month really sucks and makes you wonder why you didn't go into software. When you combine it with a fixed shuttle date like in the article it is even worse because if you miss that date it might be another 1-2 months for the next shuttle instead of just a day for day slip when you control all the masks.

dkasper 8mo ago
Don’t worry we have those 80 hour weeks in software too. I can think of a few examples. For example with mobile App Store review time used to be kind of like that. You submitted your app waited a few business days and prayed there wasn’t an obscure rejection that lead to an appeal which could take even longer. Very stressful when you are cueing up a launch and press releases on a certain date. you had to make sure you were done a few weeks in advance to account for everything. I don’t work much on apps anymore but I hear it’s somewhat better now. Another big area is compliance, those processes can take forever.
caisley 8mo ago
Can I ask how often you guys end up doing gate-level netlist ECOs, instead of re-running synthesis when you're close to a deadline? Also, post-fabrication, if a mistake is found, have you been able to fix it just with a new M1 or M2 mask, instead of paying for a full new mask set?
- lizknope 8mo ago
  If the change is under 1000 logic cells and no new flip flops then we do a it as an ECO. If there are tons of new flip flops we resynthesize and start over. Lots of chips have metal spins to fix errors. The blank areas of the chips are filled with filler cells but most of them are special "ECOFILLER" cells that are basically generic pairs of N/P transistors like a gate array. These can then be turned into any kind of cell just by using metal. They are a little slower but work fine. I've worked at one huge company where they planned 3 full base layer mask sets and 1-2 metal spins for each full base layer set. This was when doing a chip on a brand new process node where you couldn't always trust the models the fab gave you so you wanted more post silicon characterization to recalibrate models.

robinsonb5 8mo ago

A hugely entertaining blog post, despite subject matter that could easily result in very dry reading.

williadc 8mo ago

I'm shocked that SRAMs would be considered a luxury item for open silicon. They're essential for building anything that would be commercially viable, since area is far from free.

SilverElfin 8mo ago

As someone who isn’t familiar with the deep details of the hardware side of the AI industry, I’m curious if these chips are “easy” to write AI software for, or if there is a big barrier. How significant is Nvidia’s moat on the software layer, which I often see talked about in articles, when people seem to be willing to adopt AI accelerators. And if AI accelerators can be adopted, why aren’t other competitors to Nvidia (AMD, Intel, etc) able to break in?

lesser-shadow 8mo ago

As a person that is using Librelane daily in their workflow, why did they skip Gate-level simulation? Iverilog won't ensure the circuit works after tapeout, CVC most likely will. SDF-annotated simulation actually shows data hazards, as well as transistor timings. https://librelane.readthedocs.io/en/latest/usage/timing_closure/index.html https://librelane.readthedocs.io/en/latest/usage/timing_clos...

random_duck 8mo ago
> Once again, I used Cocotb as the abstracting layer allowing me to interface with multiple different simulators. Namely, icarus verilog for my standard verification and CVC for the post implementation timing annotated netlist.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]