5 ms·

I think Porsche is really in trouble here. I’m not anti-EV but the electric Macan and Cayenne look awful. They are under equipped technologically relative to t

by sklargh 8mo ago

I think Porsche is really in trouble here. I’m not anti-EV but the electric Macan and Cayenne look awful. They are under equipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers (heck basically anything). Porsche sort of sold its soul for this tech-forward design but it doesn’t deliver any meaningful benefits, these cars don’t even have level 2+ highway cruise control. In the meantime I get a bunch of crap screens and lose all the glorious physical buttons and I don’t even have a fun engine rumble to make up for it? So, the cars are ugly and uncool (I grant a matter of taste), aren’t selling in their target market (China) won’t sell meaningfully in their backup market (US) and they’re behind GM, Tesla and BYD in all regards on quality of life stuff. Not a recipe for endurance.

gloxkiqcza 8mo ago
The new Cayenne seems to be a step in the right direction for VAG. https://youtu.be/Yxc-U4_PwcU https://youtu.be/Yxc-U4_PwcU
GlacierFox 8mo ago
EV cars are mostly just appliances now. Not sure how the prestigious Porsche badge (or any other really) can stand out into the future.
- linksnapzz 8mo ago
  Making things that...track better than an appliance.
- blitzar 8mo ago
  Not sure if you have been into an appliance shop lately, but for any given appliance there are options in every price bracket.
- NetMageSCW 8mo ago
  According to (enthusiast) car magazines, Porsche BEVs are still better at being Porsches than most of the competition.
  - dzhiurgis 8mo ago
    In Doug Demuro's list 4 out of top 6 are EVs. Porsche appears at #17. Incidentally it's an EV.
netsharc 8mo ago
There's probably still plenty of value in the name, who knows if the audience who are impressed if you say "I've got a Porsche" vs "I got a Zeekr/BYD/Xiaomi" is growing or shrinking, if it shrinks fast enough, then Porsche is in trouble. It's like bragging about having a Hermes bag vs a Temu brand bag. Yeah it's all irrational, but if the world was a rational place we'd not have a man-child threatening wars and invasion because he didn't get the peace prize he wanted...
- blackwateragent 8mo ago
  Trends and perceptions can change fast in China's market. (NYTimes - Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China)[https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-germany.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-ge...]
qiqitori 8mo ago
I keep seeing "underequipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers" on HN. What kind of stuff is missing? This is not a loaded question, I only drive a couple times a month, and the vehicle I'm driving is an older Prius, so I probably lack imagination. EVs are supposed to be technologically pretty simple, most of an EV's value being in the battery packs. I've been thinking about upgrading, perhaps to a Nissan Sakura (which probably doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles either). Now I kinda wish my Prius had a 3.5mm aux-in jack but I get by with an FM transmitter.
- jayknight 8mo ago
  See this MKBHD video for an idea of features in Chinese EVs. https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI
  - qiqitori 8mo ago
    Watched it! I know it's from a US perspective, but where I live (Japan), $42000 is quite a lot! Definitely premium car territory. (E.g., Lexus RX base model) IMO the car has a lot of bells and whistles that many drivers (probably!) don't really care about. But I guess car fans like this kind of stuff. The active noise cancelling feature might be nice, but wouldn't be surprised if we see regulation on that matter at some point. You kind of need to be alert of your surroundings, etc.
  - wilg 8mo ago
    This is a car that is more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 in the Chinese market, with more or less the same features.
- sklargh 8mo ago
  I think a few things. 1. They do not have robust self-driving capability. At this level of expense I expect hands-free major highway driving. 2. They’ve removed a lot of physical buttons that improve quality of life, the level of technology in the cabin is simply overwhelming. 3. They’ve done a great job with the driving experience of the EVs but they have poor range relative to the competition.
asdff 8mo ago
What is crazy about some of these old car brands is that they have some IP that would sell like hotcakes. Aircooled 911s went from 30k cars to 130k cars on the used market over the last 10 years. If they managed to work around crash regulations, maybe with some stroking of Donalds ego right now, they'd be making money hand over fist off those old designs. I can't exactly remember the situation but I'm pretty sure there was a car company that did something like this in recent history, restarting a production run on a classic model and selling it out.
- prmoustache 8mo ago
  No. These cars are desirable and valuables as collectibles for the very reason they are a dying breed and we can't won't make them as they used to.
randerson 8mo ago
I wanted to replace my gas Macan with the new EV one. After a test drive I decided to just keep the gas one. As an EV it is excellent. But Porsche is known for engaging driver's cars, and without the visceral sounds and vibrations of an engine it is bland and boring. The flaws in a gas engine's power curve give it character. Letting the driver manage that power curve is fun. A perfectly linear sub-3s 0-60 with fake electric sport sound played through the speakers does nothing for me. I'd have probably bought it at $75K, but at $125K it needs to be more special. Especially considering the rate at which they depreciate. Its not a surprise to me that their EVs aren't selling as well as hoped. The Taycan sure is pretty though.
- maxdo 8mo ago
  You're just religious about your own preferences. Prosche specifically is facing huge losses, and with this strategy is doomed to die. There are already rumors of potential bancrupcy. EVs grew 20% globally in 2025, with developing markets surging 40%+. When EVs under $100,000 can hit sub-2.5-second 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h), all this fake "benefit" talk about exhaust notes and luxury engine refinement sounds exactly like people cheering for Vertu golden buttons at the dawn of the iPhone era. EVs are growing incredibly fast—despite the West's biggest EV supplier deciding to commit marketing harakiri by alienating half its customer base. New battery tech has made EVs affordable, and that's why adoption will keep accelerating in China, the EU, and the rest of the world. There'll be some irrelevant fluctuations in the US, but those will eventually even out regardless—because the rest of the world and technological progress will move on with or without them. we are on the edge of go-to-market of billions of dollars of investments into battery development. It will deliver both much cheaper where needed and more capable batteries on the market. Guess what it will do with legacy cars.
  - randerson 8mo ago
    EVs as a whole are growing. Porsche however is struggling because of their "sports car" identity. Taycan sales dropped 22% year-over-year [0], and their 2025 EV sales only rose because the Macan EV is new and they discontinued the gas one in the EU. (Even then: Half of all Macan buyers worldwide went for the 11-year-old gas design over the EV.) The market for EV sports cars is soft. The Rimac Nevera R broke 24 performance world records and yet nobody wants to buy it [1]. Even the CEO of Rimac has said people want an engine sound. Meanwhile Ferrari can launch an even more expensive gas car and it sells out before its officially announced [2]. I'm pro-EV and my partner owns one. They are practical appliances that are perfect for the 90% of people who just want to get from A to B. But the stats show that it's not just my personal preferences. The average sports car buyer wants an engine and exhaust. 0. https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2026/company/porsche-deliveries-2025-41516.html https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2026/company/porsche-deliver... 1. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/slow-selling-nevera-is-a-sales-flop-because-rich-people-want-ice-supercars-mate-rimac-says/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/slow-selling-nevera-is-a-s... 2. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ferrari-unveils-new-39-million-f80-supercar-2024-10-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ferrar...
tucnak 8mo ago
SuperfastMatt is buying a Cayman! I think they will be fine... https://youtu.be/rkXqKfYRJD0 https://youtu.be/rkXqKfYRJD0
- maxdo 8mo ago
  Porsche is loosing billions and people start talking they are caput(bancrupt) :)
  - NetMageSCW 8mo ago
    And Apple is going to fail.
SoftTalker 8mo ago
There's only one real Porsche, a gasoline-engined 911.
- jabl 8mo ago
  As much as I'm gung-ho about the world electrifying transport, I agree with you here. Those Porsche SUV's just look awful, whatever the drivetrain. If I'm gonna splurge on a Porsche, I'll want the real thing. And if I don't want a 911, well there are a lot of other brands making more sensible vehicles. (Of course, if a lot of other people share my extremist views, that's pretty bad for Porsche the company. They likely can't survive just producing 911's. Oh well, I'm not here for corporate charity anyway.)
- antonkochubey 8mo ago
  Nowadays the 718 might be more of a Porsche than the 911
  - NetMageSCW 8mo ago
    It definitely is, especially for the price. But the 911 range has a lot of bandwidth and there are models that go from minimalist driver’s car (911 T) to Touring/GT (most 911s) to race car for the street (GT2/GT3). But you definitely pay to step outside the GT box.
jillesvangurp 8mo ago
The big challenge Porsche has is getting rid of its shrinking ICE business. Europe is a bit ahead here of the US. China even further. Local Chinese luxury brands run circles around Porsche in terms of luxury, performance, etc. That's why they are struggling there. Their cars just aren't good enough. The way forward for Porsche would be to rip the band aid off and focus on just EVs. Leave the ICE market to hedge funds. Those are good at milking dying businesses that shrink year on year. They need to do some EV only models that are heavily optimized at being good at just that. Leave the SUV crossover BS. to all the traditional brands and make a proper sports car that goes fast and far. A little autobahn monster. That would restore their reputation for delivering unapologetically high performance cars that are slightly dangerous and exciting. ICE is dead. That's grand daddy's car at this point. That's not something somebody born this century is going to lust after and put on their wall (in poster form). And Porsche needs something that young people would want if they had the money. Their current lineup is a bit too conservative and boring. Sensible cars if they'd be half the price. But they are just too expensive and unremarkable to sell well. You can do better for the same money.
thomas_witt 8mo ago
Being a customer for years, I have to politely disagree. Design is obviously a totally personal matter of taste, but as they have made many iconic shapes, apparently they're in the broad opinion not too bad at it. The main difference is driving. I have driven many cars in my life, from very cheap to very expensive. For me personally, Porsche is in my opinion comparable to using a Mac - they're one of the few who "get it right": - The entire workmanship is fantastic—nothing wobbles and nothing rattles. - Everything looks very harmonic, from interior to usability. Every button is where it has to be. Even the built-in entertainment system is highly usable (which in my opinion others like Mercedes never got right). - And, most importantly, despite being ICE or EV, the whole driving experience is just lightyears away from many competitors. Whether it's a 911 or a 718, they are just a joy to drive. Even a Cayenne just doesn't feel like a bulky SUV. There seems to be a lot of engineering going into all of that, weight distribution, chassis tuning, etc. Apart from that - again, having owned many cars in my life - they're the most service-unintense cars ever. They just - work. You change the oil, sometimes the tires and that's it. I never had a single bigger problem with them. Is there a lot of stuff which they didn't get? Agreed. Would it be nice to have better self-driving options? Without a doubt, but that's just a question of time. But at least you have to give them that they, in strong contrast to many other German car manufacturers, didn't miss the trend and started to produce sexy EVs (hello Taycan) from very early on. As long as I can, I will stay a loyal customer to them. If you have never driven a Porsche, get a test drive. I can only highly recommend it. PS: And double points if you can do it on the German Autobahn. Try driving 240+ km/h with any other large-volume-production car, you'll be sweaty. With a Porsche, it just feels joyful.
- 0xcafecafe 8mo ago
  That is interesting. Thanks for sharing I was interested in trying out a Porsche. Do the oil changes and other maintenance items cost significantly more than other makers?
  - thomas_witt 8mo ago
    Not really, I usually don't carry them out at Porsche itself, only the regular inspections.

by sklargh 8mo ago

gloxkiqcza 8mo ago

The new Cayenne seems to be a step in the right direction for VAG. https://youtu.be/Yxc-U4_PwcU https://youtu.be/Yxc-U4_PwcU

GlacierFox 8mo ago

EV cars are mostly just appliances now. Not sure how the prestigious Porsche badge (or any other really) can stand out into the future.

linksnapzz 8mo ago
Making things that...track better than an appliance.
blitzar 8mo ago
Not sure if you have been into an appliance shop lately, but for any given appliance there are options in every price bracket.
NetMageSCW 8mo ago
According to (enthusiast) car magazines, Porsche BEVs are still better at being Porsches than most of the competition.
- dzhiurgis 8mo ago
  In Doug Demuro's list 4 out of top 6 are EVs. Porsche appears at #17. Incidentally it's an EV.

netsharc 8mo ago

There's probably still plenty of value in the name, who knows if the audience who are impressed if you say "I've got a Porsche" vs "I got a Zeekr/BYD/Xiaomi" is growing or shrinking, if it shrinks fast enough, then Porsche is in trouble. It's like bragging about having a Hermes bag vs a Temu brand bag. Yeah it's all irrational, but if the world was a rational place we'd not have a man-child threatening wars and invasion because he didn't get the peace prize he wanted...

blackwateragent 8mo ago
Trends and perceptions can change fast in China's market. (NYTimes - Why Porsche Is No Longer a ‘Premium’ Sports Car in China)[https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-germany.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/17/business/porsche-china-ge...]

qiqitori 8mo ago

I keep seeing "underequipped technologically relative to their Chinese peers" on HN. What kind of stuff is missing? This is not a loaded question, I only drive a couple times a month, and the vehicle I'm driving is an older Prius, so I probably lack imagination. EVs are supposed to be technologically pretty simple, most of an EV's value being in the battery packs. I've been thinking about upgrading, perhaps to a Nissan Sakura (which probably doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles either). Now I kinda wish my Prius had a 3.5mm aux-in jack but I get by with an FM transmitter.

jayknight 8mo ago
See this MKBHD video for an idea of features in Chinese EVs. https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI https://youtu.be/Mb6H7trzMfI
- qiqitori 8mo ago
  Watched it! I know it's from a US perspective, but where I live (Japan), $42000 is quite a lot! Definitely premium car territory. (E.g., Lexus RX base model) IMO the car has a lot of bells and whistles that many drivers (probably!) don't really care about. But I guess car fans like this kind of stuff. The active noise cancelling feature might be nice, but wouldn't be surprised if we see regulation on that matter at some point. You kind of need to be alert of your surroundings, etc.
- wilg 8mo ago
  This is a car that is more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 in the Chinese market, with more or less the same features.
sklargh 8mo ago
I think a few things. 1. They do not have robust self-driving capability. At this level of expense I expect hands-free major highway driving. 2. They’ve removed a lot of physical buttons that improve quality of life, the level of technology in the cabin is simply overwhelming. 3. They’ve done a great job with the driving experience of the EVs but they have poor range relative to the competition.

asdff 8mo ago

What is crazy about some of these old car brands is that they have some IP that would sell like hotcakes. Aircooled 911s went from 30k cars to 130k cars on the used market over the last 10 years. If they managed to work around crash regulations, maybe with some stroking of Donalds ego right now, they'd be making money hand over fist off those old designs. I can't exactly remember the situation but I'm pretty sure there was a car company that did something like this in recent history, restarting a production run on a classic model and selling it out.

prmoustache 8mo ago
No. These cars are desirable and valuables as collectibles for the very reason they are a dying breed and we can't won't make them as they used to.

randerson 8mo ago

I wanted to replace my gas Macan with the new EV one. After a test drive I decided to just keep the gas one. As an EV it is excellent. But Porsche is known for engaging driver's cars, and without the visceral sounds and vibrations of an engine it is bland and boring. The flaws in a gas engine's power curve give it character. Letting the driver manage that power curve is fun. A perfectly linear sub-3s 0-60 with fake electric sport sound played through the speakers does nothing for me. I'd have probably bought it at $75K, but at $125K it needs to be more special. Especially considering the rate at which they depreciate. Its not a surprise to me that their EVs aren't selling as well as hoped. The Taycan sure is pretty though.

maxdo 8mo ago
You're just religious about your own preferences. Prosche specifically is facing huge losses, and with this strategy is doomed to die. There are already rumors of potential bancrupcy. EVs grew 20% globally in 2025, with developing markets surging 40%+. When EVs under $100,000 can hit sub-2.5-second 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h), all this fake "benefit" talk about exhaust notes and luxury engine refinement sounds exactly like people cheering for Vertu golden buttons at the dawn of the iPhone era. EVs are growing incredibly fast—despite the West's biggest EV supplier deciding to commit marketing harakiri by alienating half its customer base. New battery tech has made EVs affordable, and that's why adoption will keep accelerating in China, the EU, and the rest of the world. There'll be some irrelevant fluctuations in the US, but those will eventually even out regardless—because the rest of the world and technological progress will move on with or without them. we are on the edge of go-to-market of billions of dollars of investments into battery development. It will deliver both much cheaper where needed and more capable batteries on the market. Guess what it will do with legacy cars.
- randerson 8mo ago
  EVs as a whole are growing. Porsche however is struggling because of their "sports car" identity. Taycan sales dropped 22% year-over-year [0], and their 2025 EV sales only rose because the Macan EV is new and they discontinued the gas one in the EU. (Even then: Half of all Macan buyers worldwide went for the 11-year-old gas design over the EV.) The market for EV sports cars is soft. The Rimac Nevera R broke 24 performance world records and yet nobody wants to buy it [1]. Even the CEO of Rimac has said people want an engine sound. Meanwhile Ferrari can launch an even more expensive gas car and it sells out before its officially announced [2]. I'm pro-EV and my partner owns one. They are practical appliances that are perfect for the 90% of people who just want to get from A to B. But the stats show that it's not just my personal preferences. The average sports car buyer wants an engine and exhaust. 0. https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2026/company/porsche-deliveries-2025-41516.html https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2026/company/porsche-deliver... 1. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/slow-selling-nevera-is-a-sales-flop-because-rich-people-want-ice-supercars-mate-rimac-says/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/slow-selling-nevera-is-a-s... 2. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ferrari-unveils-new-39-million-f80-supercar-2024-10-17/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ferrar...

tucnak 8mo ago

SuperfastMatt is buying a Cayman! I think they will be fine... https://youtu.be/rkXqKfYRJD0 https://youtu.be/rkXqKfYRJD0

maxdo 8mo ago
Porsche is loosing billions and people start talking they are caput(bancrupt) :)
- NetMageSCW 8mo ago
  And Apple is going to fail.

SoftTalker 8mo ago

There's only one real Porsche, a gasoline-engined 911.

jabl 8mo ago
As much as I'm gung-ho about the world electrifying transport, I agree with you here. Those Porsche SUV's just look awful, whatever the drivetrain. If I'm gonna splurge on a Porsche, I'll want the real thing. And if I don't want a 911, well there are a lot of other brands making more sensible vehicles. (Of course, if a lot of other people share my extremist views, that's pretty bad for Porsche the company. They likely can't survive just producing 911's. Oh well, I'm not here for corporate charity anyway.)
antonkochubey 8mo ago
Nowadays the 718 might be more of a Porsche than the 911
- NetMageSCW 8mo ago
  It definitely is, especially for the price. But the 911 range has a lot of bandwidth and there are models that go from minimalist driver’s car (911 T) to Touring/GT (most 911s) to race car for the street (GT2/GT3). But you definitely pay to step outside the GT box.

jillesvangurp 8mo ago

The big challenge Porsche has is getting rid of its shrinking ICE business. Europe is a bit ahead here of the US. China even further. Local Chinese luxury brands run circles around Porsche in terms of luxury, performance, etc. That's why they are struggling there. Their cars just aren't good enough. The way forward for Porsche would be to rip the band aid off and focus on just EVs. Leave the ICE market to hedge funds. Those are good at milking dying businesses that shrink year on year. They need to do some EV only models that are heavily optimized at being good at just that. Leave the SUV crossover BS. to all the traditional brands and make a proper sports car that goes fast and far. A little autobahn monster. That would restore their reputation for delivering unapologetically high performance cars that are slightly dangerous and exciting. ICE is dead. That's grand daddy's car at this point. That's not something somebody born this century is going to lust after and put on their wall (in poster form). And Porsche needs something that young people would want if they had the money. Their current lineup is a bit too conservative and boring. Sensible cars if they'd be half the price. But they are just too expensive and unremarkable to sell well. You can do better for the same money.

thomas_witt 8mo ago

Being a customer for years, I have to politely disagree. Design is obviously a totally personal matter of taste, but as they have made many iconic shapes, apparently they're in the broad opinion not too bad at it. The main difference is driving. I have driven many cars in my life, from very cheap to very expensive. For me personally, Porsche is in my opinion comparable to using a Mac - they're one of the few who "get it right": - The entire workmanship is fantastic—nothing wobbles and nothing rattles. - Everything looks very harmonic, from interior to usability. Every button is where it has to be. Even the built-in entertainment system is highly usable (which in my opinion others like Mercedes never got right). - And, most importantly, despite being ICE or EV, the whole driving experience is just lightyears away from many competitors. Whether it's a 911 or a 718, they are just a joy to drive. Even a Cayenne just doesn't feel like a bulky SUV. There seems to be a lot of engineering going into all of that, weight distribution, chassis tuning, etc. Apart from that - again, having owned many cars in my life - they're the most service-unintense cars ever. They just - work. You change the oil, sometimes the tires and that's it. I never had a single bigger problem with them. Is there a lot of stuff which they didn't get? Agreed. Would it be nice to have better self-driving options? Without a doubt, but that's just a question of time. But at least you have to give them that they, in strong contrast to many other German car manufacturers, didn't miss the trend and started to produce sexy EVs (hello Taycan) from very early on. As long as I can, I will stay a loyal customer to them. If you have never driven a Porsche, get a test drive. I can only highly recommend it. PS: And double points if you can do it on the German Autobahn. Try driving 240+ km/h with any other large-volume-production car, you'll be sweaty. With a Porsche, it just feels joyful.

0xcafecafe 8mo ago
That is interesting. Thanks for sharing I was interested in trying out a Porsche. Do the oil changes and other maintenance items cost significantly more than other makers?
- thomas_witt 8mo ago
  Not really, I usually don't carry them out at Porsche itself, only the regular inspections.