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Someone said that LiDAR is too expensive, camera is better :)
by senti_sentient 8mo ago
Someone said that LiDAR is too expensive, camera is better :)
- iknowstuff 8mo agoAnd then made the best adas on the market using cameras
- refulgentis 8mo agoI've struggled with this over the years, but think we can call it at this point: Waymo is definitely better. Just too much real world data. (i.e. scaled paid service, no drivers, multiple cities, for 1 year+)
- DustinBrett 8mo agoWe being who? What is your evidence it's better? The fact all the cars stopped moving when the power went out? The fact they cost WayMore? Show the evidence for your claims. And they have remote operators as proven by the power outage.
- refulgentis 8mo agoApologies, I was unclear with the "i.e." bit I assume, to spell it out: I think after struggling with it over years its time to call it because Waymo has a scaled paid service, no drivers, multiple cities, for 1 year+.
- DustinBrett 8mo agoBut I told you it wasn't without drivers, so where is the response there or acknowledgment of the fact they all went down?
- refulgentis 8mo agoIt’s because you spam this thread so much with such aggressive language that it honestly is scary to deal with you. You’re smart Darren, and so are other people, you should assume I knew the cars have remote backup operators. Again, you’re smart, you also know why that doesn’t mitigate having a scaled robotaxi service vs. nothing I doubt you’ll chill out but here’s a little behind the scenes peek for you that also directly address what you’re saying: a big turning point for me was getting a job at Google and realizing Elon was talking big game but there’s 100,000 things you gotta do to run a robot taxi service and Tesla was doing none of them. The epiphany came when I saw the windshield wipers for cameras and lidar. You might note even a platonically ideal robotaxi service would always have capacity for remote operation.
- DustinBrett 8mo agoI can't tell if this was suppose to be for me, I am not Darren. The reply was on my thread... My replies are at the same level as that which I respond to, never aggressive IMO. And if you "knew" something about the relevant topic and leave it out, that in itself is part of the dishonesty. So once you got a job at Google then you felt Waymo was better, hmmm. Tesla has a robot taxi service that in some cases has nobody in the car. Also everyone that owns a Tesla has experienced FSD in which it goes from A to B without being touched which is the same as it driving by itself. A person just went cross country and back with this. So to say Tesla is doing none of the 100,000 things you think are required, I think that says more about what someone at Google thinks is needed vs what is happening on the ground. I am not against remote operation in some cases, but those suggesting Waymo has solved this need to admit that it relies heavily on them for basic decision, like what to do when the power goes out at intersections.
- imtringued 8mo agoThis is such a weird take when Elon Musk is still letting his Optimus robots be teleoperated for basically every live demo. If you're lenient with him, it's completely unreasonable to be strict with Waymo, which works autonomously the vast majority of time.
- DustinBrett 8mo agoOptimus is early days, and my take isn't against remote operators but pointing out that Waymo relies on them much more than Tesla. You can go from 1 side of the country to the other without ever touching the wheel, something Waymo could not do. And the SF power outage incident showed us that it is actually only autonomous until it isn't, then you have a bunch of cars that can't move and won't and do not.
- Mawr 8mo agoWaymo operates without a safety driver. That's a slam dunk right there. No, some edge case that made the cars fail safely during a power outage doesn't compare. If that's the best you can come up with, you've got nothing.
- DustinBrett 8mo agoThe safety driver is the remote operator that makes decisions for things as basic as uncontrolled intersections.
- iknowstuff 8mo agoWaymo is fully autonomous, FSD is an adas for consumers. Robotaxi is a separate product. They are fantastic at driving but until they remove supervisors it’s a moot comparison
- refulgentis 8mo agoAh, I see. ADAS as in "assistance on a car I can buy", makes sense.
- terminalshort 8mo agoIs it really comparable, though? What is better a Ferrari or a Ford Ranger? That depends on if you are trying to go fast or haul 500 lbs of stuff across town. Waymo is a much better completely autonomous robo taxi in limited areas mapped to the mm, but if I want an autonomous driving system for my personal car to go wherever I want, Tesla FSD is the better option.
- Rebelgecko 8mo agoBy what metric? In terms of deaths, injuries, and crashes per mile their Full Self Driving at least an order of magnitude behind Waymo
- DustinBrett 8mo agoShow the proof then with links to unbias articles and the numbers/math.
- iknowstuff 8mo agoWaymo is not an adas. There’s nothing close to FSD 14 abilities out there for consumers. And your stats comparing to waymo are made up and debunked in the very reddit thread they came from
- cyberax 8mo agoSure. And Tesla doesn't have robotaxis at all, they're still playing in the kindergarten league. So Tesla is in a weird state right now. Tesla's highway assist is shit, it's worse than Mercedes previous generation assist after Tesla switched to the end-to-end neural networks. The new MB.Drive Assist Pro is apparently even better. FSD attempts to work in cities. But it's ridiculously bad, it's worse than useless even in simple city conditions. If I try to turn it on, it attempts to kill me at least once on my route from my office to my home. So other car makers quite sensibly avoided it, until they perfected the technology.
- durandal1 8mo agoFor anyone who has or has experienced the latest gen FSD from Tesla this comes across as a complete lie. Why would you spend energy lying on HN of all places?
- qwerpy 8mo agoI recently went on vacation and rented a 7 year old Model X and the FSD on it (v12) was better than nothing but not great, especially after having v14 on my truck drive 99% of my miles. It truly is a life-changer for people fortunate enough to have it, so it's always jarring to see the misinformed/dishonest comments online. It's still not perfect but at this point I would trust it more than the average human and certainly more than a new/old/exhausted/inebriated/distracted driver.
- cr125rider 8mo agoThat’s not true at all. Tesla taxis aren’t even close to Waymo’s capabilities.
- iknowstuff 8mo agoI said adas, nothing about waymo. That being said, yes they are, I ride them every day.
- kelnos 8mo agoHow can you possibly say that Tesla taxis have similar capabilities to Waymos when the former requires a safety driver to be present?
- iknowstuff 8mo agoBecause I use them both and I can tell Teslas are really, really good at driving, and more naturally than Waymo at that. Obviously there’s a reason they’re still supervised but if they manage to climb that mountain it’s game over for waymo
- DustinBrett 8mo agoWhere is the proof/evidence for this statement?
- jeltz 8mo agoCurious how you only ask this to people who claim Teslas are bad and not to people who claim Teslas are good.
- DustinBrett 8mo agoAny claims I care to learn about I would like evidence. Only anti-Tesla folks seem to be lacking it.
- 8mo ago
- kcb 8mo agoI was just thinking about this on my 60 mile FSD driver I just finished. Basically inevitable that I would shortly go HN or reddit and read how FSD doesn't work. FSD is here, it wasn't 3 or 4 years ago when I first bought a Tesla, but today it's incredible.
- jandrewrogers 8mo agoThe long-term view of LIDAR was not so much that it was expensive, though it was at the time. The issue is that it is susceptible to interference if everyone is using LIDAR for everything all the time and it is vulnerable to spoofing/jamming by bad actors. For better or worse, passive optical is much more robust against these types of risks. This doesn't matter much when LIDAR is relatively rare but that can't be assumed to remain the case forever.
- consumer451 8mo agoI am just some schmoe, but optics alone can be easily spoofed as any fan of the Wile E. Coyote has known for decades. [0] What's crazy to me is that anyone would think that anything short of ASI could take image based world understanding to true FSD. Tesla tried to replicate human response, ~"because humans only have eyes" but largely without even stereoscopic vision, ffs. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJL3htsDyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJL3htsDyQ
- wongarsu 8mo agoBut optical illusions are much less of an issue because humans understand them and also suffer from them. That makes them easier to detect, easier to debug, and much less scary to the average driver. Sure, someone can put up a wall painted to look like a road, but we have about a century of experience that people will generally not do that. And if they do it's easy to understand why that was an issue, and both fixing the issue (removing the mural) and punishing any malicious attempt at doing this would be swift
- consumer451 8mo ago> and punishing any malicious attempt at doing this would be swift Is this a joke? Graffiti is now punishable and enforced by whom exactly? Who decides what constitutes an illegal image? How do you catch them? What if vision-only FSD sees a city-sanctioned brick building's mural as an actual sunset? So you agree that all we need is AGI and human-equal sensors for Tesla-style FSD, but wait... plus some "swift" enforcement force for illegal murals? I love this, I have had heath issues recently, and I have not laughed this hard for a while. Thank you. Hell, at the last "Tesla AI Day," Musk himself said ~"FSD basically requires AGI" - so he is well aware.
- leobg 8mo agoThat isn’t the point. The point is that it’s not enough to figure out that there is an obstacle. You also have to figure out what that obstacle is, and you have to predict its movement. In the case of pedestrian, the car, for example, needs to know whether the pedestrian has seen you. Things like that you just cannot do with LiDAR. Hence you’re gonna need cameras anyway. Hence tge “anyone relying on LiDAR is doomed” prediction.