9 ms·

Scientists discover oldest poison, on 60k-year-old arrows

144 points by noleary 8mo ago

https://archive.ph/qGfbk https://archive.ph/qGfbk

gilleain 8mo ago
The poisions? Buphanidrine : https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Buphanidrine https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Buphanidrine and Epibuphanisine https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/substance/349793761 https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/substance/349793761 which are nearly identical compounds (it seems) except for one having an additional -OMe (Methylether) group. Looks like they are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crinine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crinine (s) From the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boophone_disticha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boophone_disticha plant.
- CGMthrowaway 8mo ago
  > having an effect akin to that of scopolamine The motion sickness patch? Gives "just shoot me" a new meaning in 6,000 BC
  - ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
    > 6,000 BC 58,000 BC
    - onionisafruit 8mo ago
      6000 decades BC
  - temp0826 8mo ago
    That is not the only effect of scopolamine. It's a very potent deliriant. In Colombia it has been used by attackers (referred to as "devil's breath", blown into the face) to cause amnesia and a very docile state (a victim might be walked to an ATM, forced to empty their accounts, and not remember a thing. Or worse). It can cause some extreme types of hallucinations.
    - gus_massa 8mo ago
      Is there a verified case? There is a similar urban legend here in Argentina, sometimes the steal your money, sometimes a kidney, ...
      - temp0826 8mo ago
        There was a NYT article[0] and a few others the last few years [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/americas/colombia-dating-apps-sedatives-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/americas/colombia-d...
        gus_massa 8mo ago
        From your comment: > referred to as "devil's breath", blown into the face I've read similar reports in email chains in the 2000. Like the guy that touched a piece of paper and a few seconds later collapsed. I think that some local newspaper even published it, without evidence. From the NYT article: > She carried it from a restaurant counter to their table. He had two spoonfuls, Mr. Valdez, 31, said. “And that’s the last thing I remember.” > He drank a pink soda, he said in a video, and later awoke to find his wallet and phone gone. > One 42-year-old man from New York recalled being drugged by a Tinder date who served him a rum and coke that he said knocked him out for 24 hours. These case makes more sense. There are a few recent similar cases here, and many buildings have security cameras on the front door, so they get a nice video of the escaping thieves.
        temp0826 8mo ago
        Yah I think there's a lot of urban legend around the stuff. I know a few people who have used it (well, Brugmansia plants that contain it anyways) as part of their apprenticeships (Amazonian plant medicine, in conjunction with ayahuasca) in a more controlled manner and even then they have some wild stories about it (waking up naked in the jungle, covered in scratches with no memory etc). It lasts a looong time.
adolph 8mo ago
For context, this is towards the end of prehistoric human time period Middle Paleolithic [0] and in the middle of geological time period Late Pleistocene [1]. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Paleolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Paleolithic 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene
WillAdams 8mo ago
How was it determined that these are arrowheads, as opposed to atlatl darts? The oldest known/discovered/documented bows only go back to ~7,000 BC (Holmegaard bows from Northern Europe).
- chrneu 8mo ago
  Can't directly answer your questions, but generally each region/time period has their own style of arrowheads, so my assumption here would be that this region tends to create arrowheads in this style. The paper mentions this is a pretty old site/artifacts, so I'd wager they found other "arrowheads". Arrowhead might also be being used generically here to mean sharpened stone tip on a projectile or thrown weapon. I'm no expert in this area, but it may just be that we aren't sure if these are arrowheads or just sharpened stones that were put on something. Someone correct me if I'm being ignorant. The article really makes it seem like a lot is unknown here, since we're dealing with 60,000 years.
  - Twiin 8mo ago
    There are a number of ways they're able to tell the difference between arrowheads and sharpened stones put on a stick, including high-resolution CT to look at the stress microcracks of the arrowhead. Bow-fired arrows and thrown spearheads have different launch stress profiles as well as impact profiles. There are a lot of overlapping types of analysis that happen to establish what technology did or did not exist in a given area at a given time.
- narag 8mo ago
  You can throw the arrow with just a piece of rope rolled around your hand and using the same grip as in the atlatl. Romans called those slingshot arrows tragulae.
icyfox 8mo ago
At the risk of being overly pedantic, topologists would typically classify this as venom. Venom is inert if digested; it's only a problem if it gets in your blood stream. So arrows that were laced with venom and thereby contaminated meat were actually perfectly safe to eat. Poison is different. If ingested, inhaled, or absorbed it will kill you.
- VanshPatel99 8mo ago
  TIL. I always thought that "If it bite you -> you die = venom" and "If you eat, bite, touch -> you die = poison". But your differentiation makes more sense
  - zahlman 8mo ago
    That explains the words "venomous" and "poisonous" used of creatures. It's different for the actual substances. Although it relates: a venomous creature that bites you will release its venom into your bloodstream.
    - anonym29 8mo ago
      >a venomous creature that bites you will release its venom into your bloodstream unless it's a bee, wasp, hornet, scorpion, stingray, jellyfish, man-of-war, platypus, lionfish, stonefish, sea urchin, or catfish, which all have venom instead of poison, but the delivery mechanism of said venom isn't biting
      - zahlman 8mo ago
        I said "bite" echoing the comment I was replying to. Obviously the same applies, mutatis mutandis, to stinging etc.
  - hearsathought 8mo ago
    If a venomous snake bites you, you die. If you bite a venomous snake, you live. If a poisonous snake bites you, you will. If you bite a poisonous snake, you die. Or Hamlet's mother died by drinking poisoned wine. Hamlet died by being stabbed with an envenomed sword.
ojo-rojo 8mo ago
It's humbling to think about all the things people have gone through over the past couple hundred thousand years. Somewhere around 117 billion humans have ever lived...? It makes it seem kind of small when we think only 50 or 100 years out when thinking of what the future would be.
shevy-java 8mo ago
Man has a rather unkind history. The even worse thing is that in 2026 this hasn't quite improved significantly. What is the main poison used today? I guess that may depend on the definition, probably particles being taken in by the lung in general. But specific poison it may be antifreeze? Or perhaps that is just more famous. Food poisoning probably is among the highest, but it would not be deliberate usually, so it should be counted in another category.
- jayzalowitz 8mo ago
  the main poison used today is dopamine.
- regularization 8mo ago
  It was almost certainly used for agriculture. Observation of hunter-gatherer bands in modern times, and archeology have little in the way of skirmishes or warfare prior to the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. Not that it never happened, but violence and war are much more endemic to the modern (past 10000 years) era.
  - WalterBright 8mo ago
    > violence and war are much more endemic to the modern (past 10000 years) era. Given the scantiness of any evidence 10,000+ years ago, I doubt such conclusions can be drawn.
  - kjkjadksj 8mo ago
    Even chimpanzees engage in war and wanton violence. One would assume this behavior is at least as ancient as the most recent common ancestor we have with the chimpanzee.
bookofjoe 8mo ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46535230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46535230
Modified3019 8mo ago
The linked study (the summary is both more concise and informative): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adz3281 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adz3281
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]

144 points by noleary 8mo ago

https://archive.ph/qGfbk https://archive.ph/qGfbk

The poisions? Buphanidrine : https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Buphanidrine https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Buphanidrine and Epibuphanisine https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/substance/349793761 https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/substance/349793761 which are nearly identical compounds (it seems) except for one having an additional -OMe (Methylether) group. Looks like they are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crinine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crinine (s) From the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boophone_disticha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boophone_disticha plant.

CGMthrowaway 8mo ago
> having an effect akin to that of scopolamine The motion sickness patch? Gives "just shoot me" a new meaning in 6,000 BC
- ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
  > 6,000 BC 58,000 BC
  - onionisafruit 8mo ago
    6000 decades BC
- temp0826 8mo ago
  That is not the only effect of scopolamine. It's a very potent deliriant. In Colombia it has been used by attackers (referred to as "devil's breath", blown into the face) to cause amnesia and a very docile state (a victim might be walked to an ATM, forced to empty their accounts, and not remember a thing. Or worse). It can cause some extreme types of hallucinations.
  - gus_massa 8mo ago
    Is there a verified case? There is a similar urban legend here in Argentina, sometimes the steal your money, sometimes a kidney, ...
    - temp0826 8mo ago
      There was a NYT article[0] and a few others the last few years [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/americas/colombia-dating-apps-sedatives-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/americas/colombia-d...
      - gus_massa 8mo ago
        From your comment: > referred to as "devil's breath", blown into the face I've read similar reports in email chains in the 2000. Like the guy that touched a piece of paper and a few seconds later collapsed. I think that some local newspaper even published it, without evidence. From the NYT article: > She carried it from a restaurant counter to their table. He had two spoonfuls, Mr. Valdez, 31, said. “And that’s the last thing I remember.” > He drank a pink soda, he said in a video, and later awoke to find his wallet and phone gone. > One 42-year-old man from New York recalled being drugged by a Tinder date who served him a rum and coke that he said knocked him out for 24 hours. These case makes more sense. There are a few recent similar cases here, and many buildings have security cameras on the front door, so they get a nice video of the escaping thieves.
        temp0826 8mo ago
        Yah I think there's a lot of urban legend around the stuff. I know a few people who have used it (well, Brugmansia plants that contain it anyways) as part of their apprenticeships (Amazonian plant medicine, in conjunction with ayahuasca) in a more controlled manner and even then they have some wild stories about it (waking up naked in the jungle, covered in scratches with no memory etc). It lasts a looong time.

adolph 8mo ago

For context, this is towards the end of prehistoric human time period Middle Paleolithic [0] and in the middle of geological time period Late Pleistocene [1]. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Paleolithic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Paleolithic 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene

WillAdams 8mo ago

How was it determined that these are arrowheads, as opposed to atlatl darts? The oldest known/discovered/documented bows only go back to ~7,000 BC (Holmegaard bows from Northern Europe).

chrneu 8mo ago
Can't directly answer your questions, but generally each region/time period has their own style of arrowheads, so my assumption here would be that this region tends to create arrowheads in this style. The paper mentions this is a pretty old site/artifacts, so I'd wager they found other "arrowheads". Arrowhead might also be being used generically here to mean sharpened stone tip on a projectile or thrown weapon. I'm no expert in this area, but it may just be that we aren't sure if these are arrowheads or just sharpened stones that were put on something. Someone correct me if I'm being ignorant. The article really makes it seem like a lot is unknown here, since we're dealing with 60,000 years.
- Twiin 8mo ago
  There are a number of ways they're able to tell the difference between arrowheads and sharpened stones put on a stick, including high-resolution CT to look at the stress microcracks of the arrowhead. Bow-fired arrows and thrown spearheads have different launch stress profiles as well as impact profiles. There are a lot of overlapping types of analysis that happen to establish what technology did or did not exist in a given area at a given time.
narag 8mo ago
You can throw the arrow with just a piece of rope rolled around your hand and using the same grip as in the atlatl. Romans called those slingshot arrows tragulae.

icyfox 8mo ago

At the risk of being overly pedantic, topologists would typically classify this as venom. Venom is inert if digested; it's only a problem if it gets in your blood stream. So arrows that were laced with venom and thereby contaminated meat were actually perfectly safe to eat. Poison is different. If ingested, inhaled, or absorbed it will kill you.

VanshPatel99 8mo ago
TIL. I always thought that "If it bite you -> you die = venom" and "If you eat, bite, touch -> you die = poison". But your differentiation makes more sense
- zahlman 8mo ago
  That explains the words "venomous" and "poisonous" used of creatures. It's different for the actual substances. Although it relates: a venomous creature that bites you will release its venom into your bloodstream.
  - anonym29 8mo ago
    >a venomous creature that bites you will release its venom into your bloodstream unless it's a bee, wasp, hornet, scorpion, stingray, jellyfish, man-of-war, platypus, lionfish, stonefish, sea urchin, or catfish, which all have venom instead of poison, but the delivery mechanism of said venom isn't biting
    - zahlman 8mo ago
      I said "bite" echoing the comment I was replying to. Obviously the same applies, mutatis mutandis, to stinging etc.
- hearsathought 8mo ago
  If a venomous snake bites you, you die. If you bite a venomous snake, you live. If a poisonous snake bites you, you will. If you bite a poisonous snake, you die. Or Hamlet's mother died by drinking poisoned wine. Hamlet died by being stabbed with an envenomed sword.

ojo-rojo 8mo ago

It's humbling to think about all the things people have gone through over the past couple hundred thousand years. Somewhere around 117 billion humans have ever lived...? It makes it seem kind of small when we think only 50 or 100 years out when thinking of what the future would be.

shevy-java 8mo ago

Man has a rather unkind history. The even worse thing is that in 2026 this hasn't quite improved significantly. What is the main poison used today? I guess that may depend on the definition, probably particles being taken in by the lung in general. But specific poison it may be antifreeze? Or perhaps that is just more famous. Food poisoning probably is among the highest, but it would not be deliberate usually, so it should be counted in another category.

jayzalowitz 8mo ago
the main poison used today is dopamine.
regularization 8mo ago
It was almost certainly used for agriculture. Observation of hunter-gatherer bands in modern times, and archeology have little in the way of skirmishes or warfare prior to the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. Not that it never happened, but violence and war are much more endemic to the modern (past 10000 years) era.
- WalterBright 8mo ago
  > violence and war are much more endemic to the modern (past 10000 years) era. Given the scantiness of any evidence 10,000+ years ago, I doubt such conclusions can be drawn.
- kjkjadksj 8mo ago
  Even chimpanzees engage in war and wanton violence. One would assume this behavior is at least as ancient as the most recent common ancestor we have with the chimpanzee.

bookofjoe 8mo ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46535230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46535230

Modified3019 8mo ago

The linked study (the summary is both more concise and informative): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adz3281 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adz3281

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]