6 ms·

It seems fitting. They destroyed Sun, destroyed Java, destroyed any developer or customer goodwill...and now they are destroying themselves.

by rachr 9mo ago

vips7L 9mo ago
Java is in the best shape it's ever been in. Jdk development and performance are through the roof and the developer experiences gets better with every release.
- davey48016 9mo ago
  Java's in great shape now, but the period between when Oracle bought Sun (~2010) and about 2017 wasn't great, and there was a lot of concern about Java's future. I think most people who moved away from Java then haven't looked back.
  - vips7L 9mo ago
    I believe that is mostly due to Sun's stagnation and lack of funding. Oracle released Java 7 in 2011 and Java 8 in 2014, which is arguably the start of modernizing Java.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 9mo ago
      I assumed it was Kotlin and/or Android. Oracle otherwise seemed fine to treat Java like IE6. It was only as alternatives (rise of Go, Rust, Clojure, etc) increasingly made the language look bad that really started to push development.
      - vips7L 9mo ago
        I don't think Oracle/OpenJdk really cares about Kotlin. It's usage is still minuscule compared to Java the language, and you're still using Java the platform by using it. I'm not sure they're really concerned about Rust either because it doesn't fill the same use cases. Go might be a concern, but who knows. I personally find Go the language to be worse then Java the language.
jeffbee 9mo ago
The idea that Java has been destroyed is pretty wild. I don't see how that belief could survive contact with the real world.
- collingreen 9mo ago
  My assumption is the poster wants to imply Oracle destroyed the good will and interest for people to start new Java projects after the licensing changes and subsequent shakedown. Java clearly still runs all over the place and will for a while (although plenty of people trying to keep java but get away from oracle).
  - manphone 9mo ago
    The Java goodwill is mostly gone and I see zero new orgs trying it so while Java is still alive and well the mindshare has definitely been squandered given the capability that Java has.
    - stronglikedan 9mo ago
      new orgs chase the shiny new things. nothing new there
      - dangus 9mo ago
        And then those new orgs become established orgs and some old orgs decline. It’s not even really a “chase,” it’s a question of “if I’m building something new, what am I choosing?” Eventually that momentum can turn into the old thing being worth actively removing.
    - jeffbee 9mo ago
      Java is one of the giants and there are tons of existing and new projects that use it. Hotspot is the choice for high performance programs. Approaching its performance even with C++ requires a dedicated team of experts. Look at QuestDB, or Netflix, as current examples of projects choosing Java. The languages that get a lot of airtime on HN like Rust, Go, and OCaml are way down in a tier of languages that get a lot of blog posts but enjoy relatively little traction in reality.
orochimaaru 9mo ago
Java is one thing they did right. Most enterprises are looking to move away from Oracle. I think there will be niche cases where rewrites don’t make sense. But for one of the big telecom providers I work for - the decision was made in 2020 to move off of Oracle. It’s not a flash cut but we’ve significantly reduced reliance. There are some critical apps that are still on it, but those are capped in maintenance mode until their replacements are ready.
swarnie 9mo ago
I still have Java on just over 1k enterprise devices, its dead?
- voakbasda 9mo ago
  More like a zombie. It is still shuffling along, but the life left it long ago.
  - swarnie 9mo ago
    I'm going to take this as the HN effect, if something isn't doing 500% a year its dead.
- vkou 9mo ago
  Java's not gone anywhere, but it's been years since I've interviewed anyone who has made it their language of choice. Developer sentiment for it isn't exactly great. A decade ago, a good ~80% of applicants chose to use it or C#. I personally don't have any issues with working with it, but nobody's learning it outside of work. On the other hand, it is quite easy to learn, so there's that going for it.
wiseowise 9mo ago
Destroyed Java? What are you even on, lol? Oracle resurrected Java.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

It seems fitting. They destroyed Sun, destroyed Java, destroyed any developer or customer goodwill...and now they are destroying themselves.

by rachr 9mo ago

It seems fitting. They destroyed Sun, destroyed Java, destroyed any developer or customer goodwill...and now they are destroying themselves.

vips7L 9mo ago

Java is in the best shape it's ever been in. Jdk development and performance are through the roof and the developer experiences gets better with every release.

davey48016 9mo ago
Java's in great shape now, but the period between when Oracle bought Sun (~2010) and about 2017 wasn't great, and there was a lot of concern about Java's future. I think most people who moved away from Java then haven't looked back.
- vips7L 9mo ago
  I believe that is mostly due to Sun's stagnation and lack of funding. Oracle released Java 7 in 2011 and Java 8 in 2014, which is arguably the start of modernizing Java.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 9mo ago
    I assumed it was Kotlin and/or Android. Oracle otherwise seemed fine to treat Java like IE6. It was only as alternatives (rise of Go, Rust, Clojure, etc) increasingly made the language look bad that really started to push development.
    - vips7L 9mo ago
      I don't think Oracle/OpenJdk really cares about Kotlin. It's usage is still minuscule compared to Java the language, and you're still using Java the platform by using it. I'm not sure they're really concerned about Rust either because it doesn't fill the same use cases. Go might be a concern, but who knows. I personally find Go the language to be worse then Java the language.

jeffbee 9mo ago

The idea that Java has been destroyed is pretty wild. I don't see how that belief could survive contact with the real world.

collingreen 9mo ago
My assumption is the poster wants to imply Oracle destroyed the good will and interest for people to start new Java projects after the licensing changes and subsequent shakedown. Java clearly still runs all over the place and will for a while (although plenty of people trying to keep java but get away from oracle).
- manphone 9mo ago
  The Java goodwill is mostly gone and I see zero new orgs trying it so while Java is still alive and well the mindshare has definitely been squandered given the capability that Java has.
  - stronglikedan 9mo ago
    new orgs chase the shiny new things. nothing new there
    - dangus 9mo ago
      And then those new orgs become established orgs and some old orgs decline. It’s not even really a “chase,” it’s a question of “if I’m building something new, what am I choosing?” Eventually that momentum can turn into the old thing being worth actively removing.
  - jeffbee 9mo ago
    Java is one of the giants and there are tons of existing and new projects that use it. Hotspot is the choice for high performance programs. Approaching its performance even with C++ requires a dedicated team of experts. Look at QuestDB, or Netflix, as current examples of projects choosing Java. The languages that get a lot of airtime on HN like Rust, Go, and OCaml are way down in a tier of languages that get a lot of blog posts but enjoy relatively little traction in reality.

orochimaaru 9mo ago

Java is one thing they did right. Most enterprises are looking to move away from Oracle. I think there will be niche cases where rewrites don’t make sense. But for one of the big telecom providers I work for - the decision was made in 2020 to move off of Oracle. It’s not a flash cut but we’ve significantly reduced reliance. There are some critical apps that are still on it, but those are capped in maintenance mode until their replacements are ready.

swarnie 9mo ago

I still have Java on just over 1k enterprise devices, its dead?

voakbasda 9mo ago
More like a zombie. It is still shuffling along, but the life left it long ago.
- swarnie 9mo ago
  I'm going to take this as the HN effect, if something isn't doing 500% a year its dead.
vkou 9mo ago
Java's not gone anywhere, but it's been years since I've interviewed anyone who has made it their language of choice. Developer sentiment for it isn't exactly great. A decade ago, a good ~80% of applicants chose to use it or C#. I personally don't have any issues with working with it, but nobody's learning it outside of work. On the other hand, it is quite easy to learn, so there's that going for it.

wiseowise 9mo ago

Destroyed Java? What are you even on, lol? Oracle resurrected Java.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]