14 ms·

I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high l

by jbstack 9mo ago

I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things. There are some (big) downsides though. Properties are very small and very expensive compared to other European countries, so you can't expect a high standard of living in this aspect unless you have plenty of money. Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. If it wasn't for these last two points I'd almost definitely move there.

wing-_-nuts 9mo ago
>Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. This was a deal breaker for me as someone on the FIRE path. It's neighbor, Belgium, is much better in this respect.
- lm28469 9mo ago
  FIRE people are funny, I wouldn't retire in belgium even if I was paid for it personally. Do you just order by tax rate and move wherever the number is the smallest ? I never heard of anyone moving to Belgium for anything other than family or cross border workers
  - jadyoyster 9mo ago
    Because Belgium didn't have capital gains tax it was actually common to (fake) retire to Belgium for wealthy individuals. There's supposed to be a capital gains tax from 2026 though.
  - esseph 9mo ago
    Belgium is one of the top 20 countries in the world for quality of life and social safety net. There are ~200 countries doing worse.
    - q3k 9mo ago
      Maybe... but you're still in Belgium. :)
    - lm28469 9mo ago
      Quality of life for integrated citizens or for FIRE leeches ? The truth from quality of life polls can be far from the truth of migrants on the ground. If you're leaving CA for Belgium to save money and enjoy a nice "quality of life" you're in for a treat lol. People aren't interchangeable units of meat that can be integrated and fully acclimated to new cultures/nations. I could understand Amsterdam/Berlin for the vibe and the fact that everyone speaks english. Portugal/Spain/Greece/Italy for the weather, the nordic countries for nature and the overall lifestyle... but Belgium, really ? no offence but it's like Luxembourg, if it wasn't for tax reasons nobody would ever willingly move there
neilv 9mo ago
> This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. What if you plan to stay permanently? Does that change your priority for accumulating more personal wealth?
- jbstack 9mo ago
  I don't follow why it makes a difference? If someone wants to invest to improve their future quality of life, why would it matter how long they will live in a place for?
  - neilv 9mo ago
    I was asking because, in country A, if you don't have a lot of money for retirement, you might soon be out on the street, or otherwise soon dead; but in country B, things might be more affordable, and have more social safety net, support, and sharing.
jonkoops 9mo ago
The new limit before being taxed is around 60K (€59.357), any amount on top of that is taxed (1.44%), so it is not like you are getting robbed blind. It is only fair that those that have a lot of money contribute so that others can participate in society with equal opportunity. Also, not all assets are taxed.
- jbstack 9mo ago
  It's actually more like 2.2% for shares (5.88% assumed return taxed at 36% = 2.2%. If you have an ultra-low risk investment strategy focused on value preservation and inflation beating (where your expected returns are in the low single digits e.g. 2 - 3%), that does start to look like being robbed blind. > It is only fair that those that have a lot of money contribute Really? 60k is "a lot of money"? Yes, it's a lot in the sense that many people have far less than that, but it's not "a lot" in the scheme of things when we're talking about saving and investing. With 60k you'll be lucky even to get the down-payment on a mortgage for a small apartment, which you'll then be paying off every month for the next several decades. Should we be taxing people on their wealth before they've even had the chance to own their first home? I would argue that such a person can't legitimately be called wealthy.
  - jonkoops 9mo ago
    Getting a mortgage in the Netherlands doesn't require a down-payment. And yes, we should be taxing wealth. Again, the taxation only applies on any amount above 60K, so if you have 61K you pay 1.44% over €1000 (approx. €14).
lm28469 9mo ago
> lists all of the reasons why countries with taxes are nice to live in > concludes by: "it would be perfect if not for taxes" People wouldn't be as friendly and well educated if they went bankrupt when losing their jobs, getting a cancer, had to take $100k loans for uni, &c. the towns wouldn't be nice and clean if people didn't pay taxes for regular cleaning, ... There are very very few countries with low taxes and nice quality of life for the average Joe, and the exceptions usually don't want you to move in. Try Albania or Bulgaria, you'll quickly understand why most people are mostly happy about paying taxes
- ramblerman 9mo ago
  Sorry but as a southern Neighbor you are painting a picture of Europe 20 years ago. Taxes these days keep up the ponzi scheme of european pensions and an influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work. There is a a lot of budget between ur citizens not going bankrupt when they get sick and taking 50% of their salary.
  - ethbr1 9mo ago
    > influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work Aka a low wage labor pool to plug the youth demographic gap. If European countries had sustainable fertility rate, then they could be choosy about immigration. At 1.3-1.5, well, people have to come from somewhere...
    - tonfreed 9mo ago
      Real mask off comment here, respect
      - ethbr1 9mo ago
        Folks spend so much time talking about second+ order effects of immigration, but it's the economy that's primarily important. I don't know too many nativists / nationalists who agree with the statement 'I am fine with my country being poorer and worse off economically in exchange for getting rid of immigrants.' Their political champions bill is as though removing immigrant labor will somehow make the economy better. Because, yes, when has a smaller, more expensive domestic labor pool ever helped a country's economic competitiveness? /s
GaryNumanVevo 9mo ago
As a US Expat who just purchased a home in Amsterdam it's a hell of a lot better than paying $1.5 mil for a shack in Sunnyvale. We bought the apartment we were living in from our landlord (funny enough because they're going to start charging him extra tax for N+2 rental properties). It's worth it. For one, they ruled that the wealth tax is against the EU human rights agenda. So they're scrambling to come up with a solution. Even with this tax, the projected weight isn't terrible. For reference my wife and I are CoastFIRE here with ~2mil USD in NW and the tax is marginal compared to our returns.
- tuesdaynight 9mo ago
  Aren't you immigrants? I thought expats were temporarily immigrants, but you don't sound as planning to go back to the USA.
  - GaryNumanVevo 9mo ago
    Immigrant yes, although a lot of my American expat friends have been here 5+ years and don't plan to go back any time soon.
giardini 9mo ago
>"I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things."< Yes, and about half the Netherlands is below sea level, something I cannot abide.

by jbstack 9mo ago

wing-_-nuts 9mo ago

>Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. This was a deal breaker for me as someone on the FIRE path. It's neighbor, Belgium, is much better in this respect.

lm28469 9mo ago
FIRE people are funny, I wouldn't retire in belgium even if I was paid for it personally. Do you just order by tax rate and move wherever the number is the smallest ? I never heard of anyone moving to Belgium for anything other than family or cross border workers
- jadyoyster 9mo ago
  Because Belgium didn't have capital gains tax it was actually common to (fake) retire to Belgium for wealthy individuals. There's supposed to be a capital gains tax from 2026 though.
- esseph 9mo ago
  Belgium is one of the top 20 countries in the world for quality of life and social safety net. There are ~200 countries doing worse.
  - q3k 9mo ago
    Maybe... but you're still in Belgium. :)
  - lm28469 9mo ago
    Quality of life for integrated citizens or for FIRE leeches ? The truth from quality of life polls can be far from the truth of migrants on the ground. If you're leaving CA for Belgium to save money and enjoy a nice "quality of life" you're in for a treat lol. People aren't interchangeable units of meat that can be integrated and fully acclimated to new cultures/nations. I could understand Amsterdam/Berlin for the vibe and the fact that everyone speaks english. Portugal/Spain/Greece/Italy for the weather, the nordic countries for nature and the overall lifestyle... but Belgium, really ? no offence but it's like Luxembourg, if it wasn't for tax reasons nobody would ever willingly move there

neilv 9mo ago

> This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. What if you plan to stay permanently? Does that change your priority for accumulating more personal wealth?

jbstack 9mo ago
I don't follow why it makes a difference? If someone wants to invest to improve their future quality of life, why would it matter how long they will live in a place for?
- neilv 9mo ago
  I was asking because, in country A, if you don't have a lot of money for retirement, you might soon be out on the street, or otherwise soon dead; but in country B, things might be more affordable, and have more social safety net, support, and sharing.

jonkoops 9mo ago

The new limit before being taxed is around 60K (€59.357), any amount on top of that is taxed (1.44%), so it is not like you are getting robbed blind. It is only fair that those that have a lot of money contribute so that others can participate in society with equal opportunity. Also, not all assets are taxed.

jbstack 9mo ago
It's actually more like 2.2% for shares (5.88% assumed return taxed at 36% = 2.2%. If you have an ultra-low risk investment strategy focused on value preservation and inflation beating (where your expected returns are in the low single digits e.g. 2 - 3%), that does start to look like being robbed blind. > It is only fair that those that have a lot of money contribute Really? 60k is "a lot of money"? Yes, it's a lot in the sense that many people have far less than that, but it's not "a lot" in the scheme of things when we're talking about saving and investing. With 60k you'll be lucky even to get the down-payment on a mortgage for a small apartment, which you'll then be paying off every month for the next several decades. Should we be taxing people on their wealth before they've even had the chance to own their first home? I would argue that such a person can't legitimately be called wealthy.
- jonkoops 9mo ago
  Getting a mortgage in the Netherlands doesn't require a down-payment. And yes, we should be taxing wealth. Again, the taxation only applies on any amount above 60K, so if you have 61K you pay 1.44% over €1000 (approx. €14).

lm28469 9mo ago

> lists all of the reasons why countries with taxes are nice to live in > concludes by: "it would be perfect if not for taxes" People wouldn't be as friendly and well educated if they went bankrupt when losing their jobs, getting a cancer, had to take $100k loans for uni, &c. the towns wouldn't be nice and clean if people didn't pay taxes for regular cleaning, ... There are very very few countries with low taxes and nice quality of life for the average Joe, and the exceptions usually don't want you to move in. Try Albania or Bulgaria, you'll quickly understand why most people are mostly happy about paying taxes

ramblerman 9mo ago
Sorry but as a southern Neighbor you are painting a picture of Europe 20 years ago. Taxes these days keep up the ponzi scheme of european pensions and an influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work. There is a a lot of budget between ur citizens not going bankrupt when they get sick and taking 50% of their salary.
- ethbr1 9mo ago
  > influx of low skilled migrants that are not incentivized to work Aka a low wage labor pool to plug the youth demographic gap. If European countries had sustainable fertility rate, then they could be choosy about immigration. At 1.3-1.5, well, people have to come from somewhere...
  - tonfreed 9mo ago
    Real mask off comment here, respect
    - ethbr1 9mo ago
      Folks spend so much time talking about second+ order effects of immigration, but it's the economy that's primarily important. I don't know too many nativists / nationalists who agree with the statement 'I am fine with my country being poorer and worse off economically in exchange for getting rid of immigrants.' Their political champions bill is as though removing immigrant labor will somehow make the economy better. Because, yes, when has a smaller, more expensive domestic labor pool ever helped a country's economic competitiveness? /s

GaryNumanVevo 9mo ago

As a US Expat who just purchased a home in Amsterdam it's a hell of a lot better than paying $1.5 mil for a shack in Sunnyvale. We bought the apartment we were living in from our landlord (funny enough because they're going to start charging him extra tax for N+2 rental properties). It's worth it. For one, they ruled that the wealth tax is against the EU human rights agenda. So they're scrambling to come up with a solution. Even with this tax, the projected weight isn't terrible. For reference my wife and I are CoastFIRE here with ~2mil USD in NW and the tax is marginal compared to our returns.

tuesdaynight 9mo ago
Aren't you immigrants? I thought expats were temporarily immigrants, but you don't sound as planning to go back to the USA.
- GaryNumanVevo 9mo ago
  Immigrant yes, although a lot of my American expat friends have been here 5+ years and don't plan to go back any time soon.

giardini 9mo ago

>"I love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things."< Yes, and about half the Netherlands is below sea level, something I cannot abide.