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In my neighborhood (a Criminal Justice Reform Zone), the catch and release of repeat criminals caused a surge in break ins. The citizens organized and funded th

In my neighborhood (a Criminal Justice Reform Zone), the catch and release of repeat criminals caused a surge in break ins. The citizens organized and funded the installation of Flock LPRs. Several criminals have been caught as a result, and crime is now down. So the impetus is twofold: - Funding provided by programs such as Operation Stonegarden and other grants - Activists agitate for Criminal Justice Reform --> Surge in crime --> The People clamor for Enhanced Security Measures and DIY

comrh 10mo ago
> Criminal Justice Reform --> Surge in crime That's a big assumption considering crime rates are already at lows
- nonethewiser 10mo ago
  >In my neighborhood (a Criminal Justice Reform Zone), the catch and release of repeat criminals caused a surge in break ins.
  - kevinh 10mo ago
    But suddenly adding cameras that resulted in catching more people fixed the issue? Surely if the catch and release was the issue, that wouldn't make a difference.
  - anigbrowl 10mo ago
    That doesn't validate the causal claim quoted above.
- ahmeneeroe-v2 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Spivak 10mo ago
    Of course, you should instead believe your own anecdotal evidence that marks a tally every time you hear about a crime, which if you watch local news is always, but doesn't mark a tally every time there isn't a crime. Fun fact that's totally not related, did you know that people who listen to true crime podcasts are more likely to believe a crime could happen to their families and are also more likely to install higher levels of security on their house?
    - ahmeneeroe-v2 10mo ago
      The fact that humans are bad at tracking stats does not necessarily mean that statistics are a more accurate "map" of reality than human intuition. (edited for clarity)
nonethewiser 10mo ago
There is a trend towards less personal accountability and more centralized prevention. Instead of properly dealing with people who misuse sharp knives, we are making all knives duller.
wil421 10mo ago
The city I used to live in trialed flock cameras for car theft. They caught more car thefts in January of the trial year than the previous year’s total.
- hopelite 10mo ago
  This is not exactly an unbiased forum to discuss this matter since Flock is a YC backed program, but what do you think will happen in short order? Maybe that car thieves will simply slap on fake license plates to get out of the area? What you’re left with then, is nothing but the tyrannical and even treasonous mass surveillance program to know where you go and when all your life, even when you leave your tracking device phone behind and use a tracking device free vehicle.
  - tptacek 10mo ago
    Nobody cares that Flock is a YC company. I'd be surprised if most YC batch members even realized off the top of their head that Flock is YC. YC companies get criticized all the time on HN, including by people who have done YC.
- tptacek 10mo ago
  We started hoping that car thefts would be a pressure point for a lot of violent crime (which tends to be committed from stolen cars --- this is the Kia problem). But we caught more innocent drivers with stale entries on the Illinois LEADS hotlist than actual stolen cars. When we OK'd the system after its pilot, it was on the condition that we no longer curb cars based on stolen car reports at all --- we'd only curb them based on stolen license plates (which have no innocent explanation). Maybe other states are different for this, but in Chicagoland, unless you don't care about disproportionately harming Black motorists, using Flock for stolen car enforcement was a flop.
  - aerostable_slug 10mo ago
    The lesson I keep getting from your experiences is that LEADS needs an overhaul. It turns out other states do have flags for things like "extraditable warrant" vs. just failure to appear warrants (something mentioned in previous discussions), and perhaps something could be done about the LEADS system if attention was given to it. It seems like fixing one's data sources is a great approach vs. tossing the baby out with the bathwater — unless of course that's the intention all along, as it is with many opposed to state-owned surveillance of this nature.
gs17 10mo ago
> the catch and release of repeat criminals caused a surge in break ins > Several criminals have been caught The actual difference here is that the second "caught" isn't followed by "and released". The camera didn't do it. My street has repeat offenders who come and steal from cars nightly. The cops know who they are and have arrested them multiple times, with them immediately being released AFAIK. A million cameras wouldn't change this.
- ahmeneeroe-v2 10mo ago
  The community got together, worked on a solution, that solution lead to arrests. A politically savvy prosecutor would not easily dismiss an organized community with proven ability to drive results. So yes, the camera didn't do it, but it helped.
  - gs17 10mo ago
    > that solution lead to arrests There were already arrests. You can't have "catch and release" if there's no "catch".
tencentshill 10mo ago
Cameras with good software work great for that, however the data should NOT be freely accessible outside of the city/jurisdiction they surveil. That's the issue with Flock vs any other AI camera/database product.

comrh 10mo ago

> Criminal Justice Reform --> Surge in crime That's a big assumption considering crime rates are already at lows

nonethewiser 10mo ago
>In my neighborhood (a Criminal Justice Reform Zone), the catch and release of repeat criminals caused a surge in break ins.
- kevinh 10mo ago
  But suddenly adding cameras that resulted in catching more people fixed the issue? Surely if the catch and release was the issue, that wouldn't make a difference.
- anigbrowl 10mo ago
  That doesn't validate the causal claim quoted above.
ahmeneeroe-v2 10mo ago
[flagged]
- Spivak 10mo ago
  Of course, you should instead believe your own anecdotal evidence that marks a tally every time you hear about a crime, which if you watch local news is always, but doesn't mark a tally every time there isn't a crime. Fun fact that's totally not related, did you know that people who listen to true crime podcasts are more likely to believe a crime could happen to their families and are also more likely to install higher levels of security on their house?
  - ahmeneeroe-v2 10mo ago
    The fact that humans are bad at tracking stats does not necessarily mean that statistics are a more accurate "map" of reality than human intuition. (edited for clarity)

nonethewiser 10mo ago

There is a trend towards less personal accountability and more centralized prevention. Instead of properly dealing with people who misuse sharp knives, we are making all knives duller.

wil421 10mo ago

The city I used to live in trialed flock cameras for car theft. They caught more car thefts in January of the trial year than the previous year’s total.

hopelite 10mo ago
This is not exactly an unbiased forum to discuss this matter since Flock is a YC backed program, but what do you think will happen in short order? Maybe that car thieves will simply slap on fake license plates to get out of the area? What you’re left with then, is nothing but the tyrannical and even treasonous mass surveillance program to know where you go and when all your life, even when you leave your tracking device phone behind and use a tracking device free vehicle.
- tptacek 10mo ago
  Nobody cares that Flock is a YC company. I'd be surprised if most YC batch members even realized off the top of their head that Flock is YC. YC companies get criticized all the time on HN, including by people who have done YC.
tptacek 10mo ago
We started hoping that car thefts would be a pressure point for a lot of violent crime (which tends to be committed from stolen cars --- this is the Kia problem). But we caught more innocent drivers with stale entries on the Illinois LEADS hotlist than actual stolen cars. When we OK'd the system after its pilot, it was on the condition that we no longer curb cars based on stolen car reports at all --- we'd only curb them based on stolen license plates (which have no innocent explanation). Maybe other states are different for this, but in Chicagoland, unless you don't care about disproportionately harming Black motorists, using Flock for stolen car enforcement was a flop.
- aerostable_slug 10mo ago
  The lesson I keep getting from your experiences is that LEADS needs an overhaul. It turns out other states do have flags for things like "extraditable warrant" vs. just failure to appear warrants (something mentioned in previous discussions), and perhaps something could be done about the LEADS system if attention was given to it. It seems like fixing one's data sources is a great approach vs. tossing the baby out with the bathwater — unless of course that's the intention all along, as it is with many opposed to state-owned surveillance of this nature.

gs17 10mo ago

> the catch and release of repeat criminals caused a surge in break ins > Several criminals have been caught The actual difference here is that the second "caught" isn't followed by "and released". The camera didn't do it. My street has repeat offenders who come and steal from cars nightly. The cops know who they are and have arrested them multiple times, with them immediately being released AFAIK. A million cameras wouldn't change this.

ahmeneeroe-v2 10mo ago
The community got together, worked on a solution, that solution lead to arrests. A politically savvy prosecutor would not easily dismiss an organized community with proven ability to drive results. So yes, the camera didn't do it, but it helped.
- gs17 10mo ago
  > that solution lead to arrests There were already arrests. You can't have "catch and release" if there's no "catch".

tencentshill 10mo ago

Cameras with good software work great for that, however the data should NOT be freely accessible outside of the city/jurisdiction they surveil. That's the issue with Flock vs any other AI camera/database product.