6 ms·

But see also the next section ("empowering experienced users"): > We are building a new advanced flow that allows experienced users to accept the risks of inst

But see also the next section ("empowering experienced users"): > We are building a new advanced flow that allows experienced users to accept the risks of installing software that isn't verified

Aachen 10mo ago
Oh! I thought I had found the crucial piece finally after ~500 words, but there's indeed better news in the section after that! Thanks, I can go sleep with a more optimistic feeling now :) Also this will kill any impetus that was growing on the Linux phone development side, for better or worse. We get to live in this ecosystem a while longer, let's see if people keep damocles' sword in mind and we might see more efforts towards cross-platform builds for example
- ryandrake 10mo ago
  Let's take the "W". This is pretty good news!
  - benatkin 10mo ago
    This isn't a "W", but I am finding my own "W" from this by seeing others distrust Google, and remembering to continue supporting and looking for open alternatives to Google.
  - catlikesshrimp 10mo ago
    I am not english native. Is "The W" a synonym for "A Win", described as a positive outcome after a contest? Is there more nuance or context than that?
    - qingcharles 10mo ago
      I've never seen it in English outside of the USA, but it's very common inside.
    - thristian 10mo ago
      I think it's from people reporting sports statistics for a player or team as "W:5 L:7" meaning "five wins and seven losses". https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/l-and-w-slang https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/l-and-w-slang
    - arcfour 10mo ago
      Yes, but it's often just "a W" or simply "W" in response to something good or seen as a "win." There is also the same thing with L for loss/loser. "that's an L take", "L [person]", "take the L here", etc. They are pretty straightforward in their meaning, basically what you described. I believe it comes from sports but they are used for any good or bad outcome regardless of whether it was a contest.
    - Aachen 10mo ago
      The others answered the question, but I wanted to add that this is "new English" to me as well (also non native though). I first saw it in chats with mostly teenagers in ~2021, where I've also learned "let's go" isn't about going anywhere at all (it means the same as w) This is the first sign we're getting old :) new language features feel new. The language features I picked up in school, that my parents remarked upon, were simply normal to me, not new at all. I notice it pretty strongly nowadays with my grandma, where I keep picking up new terms in Dutch (mainly loan words) but she isn't exposed to them and so I struggle to find what words she knows. Not just new/updated concepts like VR, gender-neutral pronouns, or a new word for messages that are specifically in an online chat, but also old concepts like bias. It's always been there but I'd have no idea what she'd use to describe that concept
  - echelon 10mo ago
    This is not a win. This is having independent distribution shut down and controlled. We no longer own our devices. We're in a worse state than we were in before. Google is becoming a dictator like Apple.
    - rbits 10mo ago
      It's not being shut down though. The article says that there will be a way to install unverified apps.
      - klez 10mo ago
        Ok, but sideloading is already a thing. What will this way to install unverified apps be? I doubt it will be an extra screen asking "Are you super-duper sure you want to enable sidloading???" after the one already asking the same question.
        exe34 10mo ago
        They talk about doing it under pressure, so my guess is there might be a waiting period before you're allowed free reign, or maybe per-app. Or some level of calling google, listening to 10 minutes of how poor billionaires are going to starve if you have control of your own device before being allowed to unlock it.
      - echelon 10mo ago
        You'll have to sign if you wish to distribute. That's an easy way for them to control you.
  - Grimblewald 10mo ago
    That's like accepting vaders 'altered' deal, and being grateful it hasn't been altered further. If google wants a walled garden, let it wall off it's own devices, but what right does it have to command other manufactures to bow down as well? At this stage we've got the choice of dictato-potato phone prime, or misc flavour of peasant. If you want walled garden, go use apple. The option is there. We don't need to bring that here.
    - throawayonthe 10mo ago
      i mean, this program is specifically for google verifed devices...
      - roblabla 10mo ago
        Google Certified Devices is any device that has GMS (Google Mobile Services) installed - ergo almost all of them. It's worth noting that a _lot_ of apps stop functioning when GMS is missing because Google has been purposefully been putting as much functionality in them instead of putting them in AOSP. So you end up in a situation where, to make an Android phone compatible with most apps, you need GMS. Which in turn means you need your phone to be Google Certified, and hence must implement this specification.
gblargg 10mo ago
Let me guess, a warning box that requires me to give permission to the app to install from third-party sources? Is that not clear enough confirmation that I know what I'm doing? /s
metadat 10mo ago
So.. all this drama over an alert(yes/no) box? Wow, this really pulls back the veil. This Vendor (google) is only looking out for numero uno.
- Aurornis 10mo ago
  > So.. all this drama over an alert(yes/no) box? The angry social media narratives have been running wild from people who insert their own assumptions into what’s happening. It’s been fairly clear from the start that this wasn’t the end of sideloading, period. However that doesn’t get as many clicks and shares as writing a headline claiming that Google is taking away your rights.
  - kcb 10mo ago
    What are you talking about? This change for "experienced users" was only just announced and not part of any previous announcement. It has not been clear from the start at all.
  - gumby271 10mo ago
    Sorry what? Their original plan absolutely was the end of sideloading on-device outside of Google's say so. That's what the angry social media narratives were that you seem upset about. Anyone being pedantic and pointing out that adb install is still an option therefore sideloading still exists can fuck off at this point.
  - Superblazer 10mo ago
    Have you missed the plot entirely? This is absurd
  - devsda 10mo ago
    > The angry social media narratives have been running wild from people who insert their own assumptions There may have been exaggerations in some cases but these hand wavy responses like "you can still do X but you just can't do Y and Z is now mandatory" or "you can always use Y" is how we got to this situation in the first place. This is just the next evolution of SafetyNet & play integrity API. Remember how many said use alternatives. Not saying safetynet is bad but I don't believe their intentions were to stop at just that.
rrix2 10mo ago
it's probably just gonna be under the Developer Options "secret" menu
- magguzu 10mo ago
  Which is totally fine IMO, it was weird to me that they weren't going with this approach when they first announced it. Macs blocked launching apps from unverified devs, but you can override in settings. I thought they could just do something along those lines.
  - kelnos 10mo ago
    That's not fine at all. A developer who doesn't want to (or can't) distribute through the Play Store will now need to teach their users how to enable developer mode and toggle a hidden setting. This raises the barrier a bit more than the current method of installing outside the Play Store.
  - hasperdi 10mo ago
    It's not fine. Some apps particularly banking apps have developer mode detection and refuse to work if developer mode is enabled.
    - exe34 10mo ago
      I've switched banks for less.
      - Aachen 10mo ago
        Until there are no banks left to switch to Maybe this sounds dark but see also how the net is tightening around phones that allow you to run open firmware after you've bought the hardware for the full and fair price. We're slowly being relegated to crappy hobbyist projects once the last major vendors decide on this as well, and I don't even understand what crime it is I'm being locked out for We're too small a group for commercial vendors to care. Switching away isn't enough, especially when there's no solidarity, not even among hackers. Anyone who uses Apple phones votes with their wallet for locking down the ability to run software of your choice on hardware of your choice. It's as anti-hacker as you can get but it's fairly popular among the HN audience for some reason If not even we can agree on this internally, what's a bank going to care about the fifty people in the country that can't use a banking app because they're obstinately using dev tools? What are they gonna do, try to live bankless? Of course, so long as we can switch away: by all means. But it's not a long-term solution
advisedwang 10mo ago
That doesn't say that you can just build an APK and distribute it. I suspect this path _still_ requires you to create a developer console account and distribute binaries signed by it... just that that developer account doesn't have to have completed identity verification.
- consp 10mo ago
  So you will now need a useless and needless account to build and run your own apps? It's like Microsoft forcing online login on pcs.
  - advisedwang 10mo ago
    useless, needless and terminateable at Google's pleasure!
DavideNL 10mo ago
> We are building a new advanced flow that allows experienced users to accept the risks of installing software that isn't verified Sure, they'll keep building it forever — this is just a delay tactic.

But see also the next section ("empowering experienced users"): > We are building a new advanced flow that allows experienced users to accept the risks of installing software that isn't verified

Aachen 10mo ago

Oh! I thought I had found the crucial piece finally after ~500 words, but there's indeed better news in the section after that! Thanks, I can go sleep with a more optimistic feeling now :) Also this will kill any impetus that was growing on the Linux phone development side, for better or worse. We get to live in this ecosystem a while longer, let's see if people keep damocles' sword in mind and we might see more efforts towards cross-platform builds for example

ryandrake 10mo ago
Let's take the "W". This is pretty good news!
- benatkin 10mo ago
  This isn't a "W", but I am finding my own "W" from this by seeing others distrust Google, and remembering to continue supporting and looking for open alternatives to Google.
- catlikesshrimp 10mo ago
  I am not english native. Is "The W" a synonym for "A Win", described as a positive outcome after a contest? Is there more nuance or context than that?
  - qingcharles 10mo ago
    I've never seen it in English outside of the USA, but it's very common inside.
  - thristian 10mo ago
    I think it's from people reporting sports statistics for a player or team as "W:5 L:7" meaning "five wins and seven losses". https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/l-and-w-slang https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/l-and-w-slang
  - arcfour 10mo ago
    Yes, but it's often just "a W" or simply "W" in response to something good or seen as a "win." There is also the same thing with L for loss/loser. "that's an L take", "L [person]", "take the L here", etc. They are pretty straightforward in their meaning, basically what you described. I believe it comes from sports but they are used for any good or bad outcome regardless of whether it was a contest.
  - Aachen 10mo ago
    The others answered the question, but I wanted to add that this is "new English" to me as well (also non native though). I first saw it in chats with mostly teenagers in ~2021, where I've also learned "let's go" isn't about going anywhere at all (it means the same as w) This is the first sign we're getting old :) new language features feel new. The language features I picked up in school, that my parents remarked upon, were simply normal to me, not new at all. I notice it pretty strongly nowadays with my grandma, where I keep picking up new terms in Dutch (mainly loan words) but she isn't exposed to them and so I struggle to find what words she knows. Not just new/updated concepts like VR, gender-neutral pronouns, or a new word for messages that are specifically in an online chat, but also old concepts like bias. It's always been there but I'd have no idea what she'd use to describe that concept
- echelon 10mo ago
  This is not a win. This is having independent distribution shut down and controlled. We no longer own our devices. We're in a worse state than we were in before. Google is becoming a dictator like Apple.
  - rbits 10mo ago
    It's not being shut down though. The article says that there will be a way to install unverified apps.
    - klez 10mo ago
      Ok, but sideloading is already a thing. What will this way to install unverified apps be? I doubt it will be an extra screen asking "Are you super-duper sure you want to enable sidloading???" after the one already asking the same question.
      - exe34 10mo ago
        They talk about doing it under pressure, so my guess is there might be a waiting period before you're allowed free reign, or maybe per-app. Or some level of calling google, listening to 10 minutes of how poor billionaires are going to starve if you have control of your own device before being allowed to unlock it.
    - echelon 10mo ago
      You'll have to sign if you wish to distribute. That's an easy way for them to control you.
- Grimblewald 10mo ago
  That's like accepting vaders 'altered' deal, and being grateful it hasn't been altered further. If google wants a walled garden, let it wall off it's own devices, but what right does it have to command other manufactures to bow down as well? At this stage we've got the choice of dictato-potato phone prime, or misc flavour of peasant. If you want walled garden, go use apple. The option is there. We don't need to bring that here.
  - throawayonthe 10mo ago
    i mean, this program is specifically for google verifed devices...
    - roblabla 10mo ago
      Google Certified Devices is any device that has GMS (Google Mobile Services) installed - ergo almost all of them. It's worth noting that a _lot_ of apps stop functioning when GMS is missing because Google has been purposefully been putting as much functionality in them instead of putting them in AOSP. So you end up in a situation where, to make an Android phone compatible with most apps, you need GMS. Which in turn means you need your phone to be Google Certified, and hence must implement this specification.

gblargg 10mo ago

Let me guess, a warning box that requires me to give permission to the app to install from third-party sources? Is that not clear enough confirmation that I know what I'm doing? /s

metadat 10mo ago

So.. all this drama over an alert(yes/no) box? Wow, this really pulls back the veil. This Vendor (google) is only looking out for numero uno.

Aurornis 10mo ago
> So.. all this drama over an alert(yes/no) box? The angry social media narratives have been running wild from people who insert their own assumptions into what’s happening. It’s been fairly clear from the start that this wasn’t the end of sideloading, period. However that doesn’t get as many clicks and shares as writing a headline claiming that Google is taking away your rights.
- kcb 10mo ago
  What are you talking about? This change for "experienced users" was only just announced and not part of any previous announcement. It has not been clear from the start at all.
- gumby271 10mo ago
  Sorry what? Their original plan absolutely was the end of sideloading on-device outside of Google's say so. That's what the angry social media narratives were that you seem upset about. Anyone being pedantic and pointing out that adb install is still an option therefore sideloading still exists can fuck off at this point.
- Superblazer 10mo ago
  Have you missed the plot entirely? This is absurd
- devsda 10mo ago
  > The angry social media narratives have been running wild from people who insert their own assumptions There may have been exaggerations in some cases but these hand wavy responses like "you can still do X but you just can't do Y and Z is now mandatory" or "you can always use Y" is how we got to this situation in the first place. This is just the next evolution of SafetyNet & play integrity API. Remember how many said use alternatives. Not saying safetynet is bad but I don't believe their intentions were to stop at just that.

rrix2 10mo ago

it's probably just gonna be under the Developer Options "secret" menu

magguzu 10mo ago
Which is totally fine IMO, it was weird to me that they weren't going with this approach when they first announced it. Macs blocked launching apps from unverified devs, but you can override in settings. I thought they could just do something along those lines.
- kelnos 10mo ago
  That's not fine at all. A developer who doesn't want to (or can't) distribute through the Play Store will now need to teach their users how to enable developer mode and toggle a hidden setting. This raises the barrier a bit more than the current method of installing outside the Play Store.
- hasperdi 10mo ago
  It's not fine. Some apps particularly banking apps have developer mode detection and refuse to work if developer mode is enabled.
  - exe34 10mo ago
    I've switched banks for less.
    - Aachen 10mo ago
      Until there are no banks left to switch to Maybe this sounds dark but see also how the net is tightening around phones that allow you to run open firmware after you've bought the hardware for the full and fair price. We're slowly being relegated to crappy hobbyist projects once the last major vendors decide on this as well, and I don't even understand what crime it is I'm being locked out for We're too small a group for commercial vendors to care. Switching away isn't enough, especially when there's no solidarity, not even among hackers. Anyone who uses Apple phones votes with their wallet for locking down the ability to run software of your choice on hardware of your choice. It's as anti-hacker as you can get but it's fairly popular among the HN audience for some reason If not even we can agree on this internally, what's a bank going to care about the fifty people in the country that can't use a banking app because they're obstinately using dev tools? What are they gonna do, try to live bankless? Of course, so long as we can switch away: by all means. But it's not a long-term solution

advisedwang 10mo ago

That doesn't say that you can just build an APK and distribute it. I suspect this path _still_ requires you to create a developer console account and distribute binaries signed by it... just that that developer account doesn't have to have completed identity verification.

consp 10mo ago
So you will now need a useless and needless account to build and run your own apps? It's like Microsoft forcing online login on pcs.
- advisedwang 10mo ago
  useless, needless and terminateable at Google's pleasure!

DavideNL 10mo ago

> We are building a new advanced flow that allows experienced users to accept the risks of installing software that isn't verified Sure, they'll keep building it forever — this is just a delay tactic.