6 ms·

The debris is pretty close to the color of the road. Seems like a good case for radar/lidar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

by coreyh14444 1y ago

lazide 1y ago
Who knew spending more on extra sensors would help avoid issues like this? So weird.
- raisedbyninjas 1y ago
  Sensor fusion is too hard is the new cope.
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    To paraphrase sarcastically: "But what happens when the sensors disagree???"
    - burnt-resistor 1y ago
      [Insert red herring about MCAS and cop out about how redundancy is "hard" and "bad" "complexity".] Have a minimum quorum of sensors, disable one if it generates impossible values (while deciding carefully what is and isn't possible), use sensors that are much more durable, reliable, and can be self-tested, and integration and subsystem test test test thoroughly some more.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
petermcneeley 1y ago
And yet the humans detected it without lidar?
- bananapub 1y ago
  they're making fun of Tesla, which stopped putting radar (ed: I misremembered, thanks to the commenter below) in their cars during the pandemic when it got expensive and instead of saying "we can't afford it", claimed it's actually better to not have lidar and just rely on cameras
  - AlotOfReading 1y ago
    Tesla has never had LIDAR on production cars, only mapping/ground truth and test vehicles. It was radar that disappeared during the pandemic.
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Human eyes are better by most metrics than any camera, and certainly any camera which costs less than a car. Also, obviously, our visual processing is, by most metrics, so much better than the best CV (never mind the sort of CV that can run realtime in a car) that it's not even funny.
ekianjo 1y ago
do we have an example of Lidar equipped car that can avoid that?
- jefftk 1y ago
  Tesla is essentially the only one that doesn't use lidar. I'd be very surprised if a Waymo had a problem with this debris.
- Bengalilol 1y ago
  Of course. There are plenty of LiDAR demos out there. For a starter : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gylfQ4yb5sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gylfQ4yb5sI BTW: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/comments/1kwrc7p/23_my_with_hw4_swerves_to_avoid_tire_tracks_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/comments/1kwrc7p/23_my_wit...
ACCount37 1y ago
Yeah! Just add more sensors! We're only 992 more sensors away from full self-driving! It totally works that way! The debris? The very visible piece of debris? The piece of debris that a third party camera inside the car did in fact see? Adding 2 radars and 5 LIDARs would totally solve that! For fuck's sake, I am tired of this worn out argument. The bottleneck of self-driving isn't sensors. It was never sensors. The bottleneck of self-drivng always was, and still is: AI. Every time a self-driving car crashes due to a self-driving fault, you pull the blackbox, and what do you see? The sensors received all the data they needed to make the right call. The system had enough time to make the right call. The system did not make the right call. The issue is always AI.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  The problem can be sensors, even for humans. When a human's vision gets bad enough, they lose their license.
  - ACCount37 1y ago
    We had sensors that can beat "a human whose vision got bad enough to get the license revoked" used as far back as in the 2004 DARPA competition. That got us some of the way towards self-driving, but not all the way. AI was the main bottleneck back then. 20 years later, it still is.
    - senordevnyc 1y ago
      We don't have a bottleneck anymore. We have Waymo. They seemed to have solved whatever the issue was...I wonder what the main difference between the Waymo system and the Tesla system is?
      - ACCount37 1y ago
        The "main difference" is that Waymo wouldn't even try to drive coast to coast. Because it's geofenced to shit. Restricted entirely to a few select, fully pre-mapped areas. They only recently started trying to add more freeways to the fence.
Scarblac 1y ago
Maybe it decided it was a harmless plastic bag or something.
- aarond0623 1y ago
  I've made that mistake before and the "plastic bag" cut my brake lines. Now I try to avoid anything in the road that shouldn't be there.
  - logicalmind 1y ago
    I've heard stories of plastic bags on the highway making their way into the path of the front-facing cameras of vehicles. Resulting in automatic emergency braking at highway speeds.

The debris is pretty close to the color of the road. Seems like a good case for radar/lidar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

lazide 1y ago

Who knew spending more on extra sensors would help avoid issues like this? So weird.

raisedbyninjas 1y ago
Sensor fusion is too hard is the new cope.
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  To paraphrase sarcastically: "But what happens when the sensors disagree???"
  - burnt-resistor 1y ago
    [Insert red herring about MCAS and cop out about how redundancy is "hard" and "bad" "complexity".] Have a minimum quorum of sensors, disable one if it generates impossible values (while deciding carefully what is and isn't possible), use sensors that are much more durable, reliable, and can be self-tested, and integration and subsystem test test test thoroughly some more.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

petermcneeley 1y ago

And yet the humans detected it without lidar?

bananapub 1y ago
they're making fun of Tesla, which stopped putting radar (ed: I misremembered, thanks to the commenter below) in their cars during the pandemic when it got expensive and instead of saying "we can't afford it", claimed it's actually better to not have lidar and just rely on cameras
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  Tesla has never had LIDAR on production cars, only mapping/ground truth and test vehicles. It was radar that disappeared during the pandemic.
rsynnott 1y ago
Human eyes are better by most metrics than any camera, and certainly any camera which costs less than a car. Also, obviously, our visual processing is, by most metrics, so much better than the best CV (never mind the sort of CV that can run realtime in a car) that it's not even funny.

ekianjo 1y ago

do we have an example of Lidar equipped car that can avoid that?

jefftk 1y ago
Tesla is essentially the only one that doesn't use lidar. I'd be very surprised if a Waymo had a problem with this debris.
Bengalilol 1y ago
Of course. There are plenty of LiDAR demos out there. For a starter : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gylfQ4yb5sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gylfQ4yb5sI BTW: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/comments/1kwrc7p/23_my_with_hw4_swerves_to_avoid_tire_tracks_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/comments/1kwrc7p/23_my_wit...

ACCount37 1y ago

Yeah! Just add more sensors! We're only 992 more sensors away from full self-driving! It totally works that way! The debris? The very visible piece of debris? The piece of debris that a third party camera inside the car did in fact see? Adding 2 radars and 5 LIDARs would totally solve that! For fuck's sake, I am tired of this worn out argument. The bottleneck of self-driving isn't sensors. It was never sensors. The bottleneck of self-drivng always was, and still is: AI. Every time a self-driving car crashes due to a self-driving fault, you pull the blackbox, and what do you see? The sensors received all the data they needed to make the right call. The system had enough time to make the right call. The system did not make the right call. The issue is always AI.

AnimalMuppet 1y ago
The problem can be sensors, even for humans. When a human's vision gets bad enough, they lose their license.
- ACCount37 1y ago
  We had sensors that can beat "a human whose vision got bad enough to get the license revoked" used as far back as in the 2004 DARPA competition. That got us some of the way towards self-driving, but not all the way. AI was the main bottleneck back then. 20 years later, it still is.
  - senordevnyc 1y ago
    We don't have a bottleneck anymore. We have Waymo. They seemed to have solved whatever the issue was...I wonder what the main difference between the Waymo system and the Tesla system is?
    - ACCount37 1y ago
      The "main difference" is that Waymo wouldn't even try to drive coast to coast. Because it's geofenced to shit. Restricted entirely to a few select, fully pre-mapped areas. They only recently started trying to add more freeways to the fence.

Scarblac 1y ago

Maybe it decided it was a harmless plastic bag or something.

aarond0623 1y ago
I've made that mistake before and the "plastic bag" cut my brake lines. Now I try to avoid anything in the road that shouldn't be there.
- logicalmind 1y ago
  I've heard stories of plastic bags on the highway making their way into the path of the front-facing cameras of vehicles. Resulting in automatic emergency braking at highway speeds.