8 ms·

Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

304 points by computerliker 1y ago

bluGill 1y ago
had to check: toyota owns 5% of mazda which makes them the largest shareholder.
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  TIL as well
  - themaninthedark 1y ago
    IIRC; Toyota started investing in Mazda to gain access to their engine technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyactiv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyactiv https://thedetroitbureau.com/2019/07/toyota-teaming-up-with-mazda-on-i-6-skyactiv-engine/ https://thedetroitbureau.com/2019/07/toyota-teaming-up-with-...
- burkaman 1y ago
  Technically a bank is a much larger shareholder (https://www.mazda.com/en/investors/stockinfo/situation/ https://www.mazda.com/en/investors/stockinfo/situation/), but Mazda and Toyota have been collaborating for a long time with joint manufacturing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Toyota_Manufacturing_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Toyota_Manufacturing_USA) and technology sharing. Toyota has similar arrangements with other companies like Subaru and Suzuki.
  - kenhwang 1y ago
    That's a trust account though, they're just holding shares on behalf of fund managers or individuals. They also generally don't vote. So for all intents and purposes, Toyota is the largest singular voting shareholder.
- redwall_hp 1y ago
  Toyota also owns Daihatsu, which is a lesser known name in the US, but is a major maker of kei cars, which are huge in Japan and other parts of Asia. They also own Denso, which is the second largest auto parts company. And they partner with Subaru on some things, such as the Subaru BRZ and Toyota GR86, which are basically the same car with different badging.
  - kenhwang 1y ago
    Toyota owns a de facto controlling stake in Subaru (~20%). Due to typical Japanese corporation by-laws, it only takes 33% share ownership for uncontested control of a corporation, and >50% of 33% means they'll never lose a vote for simple majority matters, which is basically everything except selling or dissolving the company. The 20% threshold is for a guaranteed seat on the board, which lets them put issues up for a vote.
    - omega3 1y ago
      > Due to typical Japanese corporation by-laws, it only takes 33% share ownership for uncontested control of a corporation It doesn’t make any sense.
      - kenhwang 1y ago
        Think of it like how Zuckerberg only owns 13% of Facebook but has >60% of the voting power. Japanese law allows corporations to only require 1/3 of voting shares present for quorum, and then a majority of those present to pass resolutions. It also allows cross-shareholders (like Toyota) to have special privileges over regular class shareholders (typically right of first refusal over any resolution). In practice, nothing much will pass without the largest shareholder's approval.
        axus 1y ago
        How would they prevent two owners from owning 35% each? Could owner A vote something on Tuesday, and owner B vote something different on Wednesday?
- lupusreal 1y ago
  TIL Mazda isn't a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota. I thought it was, now I wonder where I got that from.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Ownership changes over time. At one time ford was in control. Which is why I checked - what toyota is doing makes no sense until you see current situations, now there is an obvious expected return on investment (if it works out of course- if it does they will do this to their own factories, if not they will write it off and not lose much.)
  - bityard 1y ago
    Related: Ford once had a 33.4% stake in Mazda and there was a bunch of cross-pollination between the two companies at that time. My 2002 Mazda Protege was loaded with various parts bearing the FoMoCo logo. And Mazda engines/chassis powered a bunch of Ford cars world-wide.
zhyder 1y ago
Neat idea to mix batteries of different age and chemistries. I've wondered why EVs couldn't do that too with some power electronics and SW. If an EV battery could have multiple such modules, it'd: 1) Make it easier to carry a cheaper lighter less-natural-resources-consuming battery most of the time. Go to some "gas station" to rent and add more modules when taking a road trip 2) Make it cheaper to replace the 1 module used a lot at its EOL, thereby making EVs last longer and be viable as cheap used cars even past 10 years like ICE cars are 3) Allow easier upgrades as chemistry improves: solid-state, sodium ion, etc. Modules could be electrically tested for fit. I'd think the fit range would be quite wide (e.g. if one supported lower max discharge rates than another) given the headroom we have with EVs' power these days: they have far-more-than-needed power (which mostly comes for free with EV range). The tradeoff is that they'd need to be built to be modular with some standardization on module dimensions (maybe we'll have "ZZ" size like we have AA, C, etc today), and would take a tad more volume in the vehicle (though the limiting factor is weight rather than volume). Easily worthwhile over the current model with a huge monolithic pack.
- momoschili 1y ago
  I have to imagine that even accounting for the variance in internal resistance over a large set of batteries in a demanding application like a car is probably a host of problems makes this unattractive from the outset.
- bri3d 1y ago
  It's quite likely that lower discharge rate requirements are a large part of what makes this system function. Batteries with different internal resistance can work reasonably well even in a naive series system at low discharge rates but absolutely will not work at high discharge rates.
  - lstodd 1y ago
    exactly. state-of-charge / depth-of-discharge vs lifetime accumulated "discharge stress" so to say also matters a lot. batteries aren't simple, even lifepo4 ones.
- 1y ago
skhameneh 1y ago
This seems very bizarre given Mazda is probably the least (of all "major" manufacturers) focused on EV and electric initiatives. Mazda only had one EV, the MX-30 EV. Less than 600 of the MX-30 EV were sold in the US during its production. It was a complete flop right out of production. Mazda leadership has been notorious for pushing rotary engines and shifting further away from EV initiatives.
- momoschili 1y ago
  Did you even read the article? It has nothing to do with producing EVs, they are using the old EV batteries to help power manufacturing facilities.
  - Loudergood 1y ago
    This is very bizarre because that's exactly what GP was pointing out.
    - momoschili 1y ago
      seemed like they were pointing out that Mazda EV offerings are bad and that they don't worry about EV initiatives. That doesn't have much to do with studying how to put older batteries to use - EVs can be bad for many reasons. To me it seems perfectly reasonable to try to find a way to leverage depleted EV batteries for a factory - whether or not it's producing EVs or not.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- wallaBBB 1y ago
  it's unrelated to the manufacturing of EVs. If any factory reaches a significant energy generation (usually this means from solar) it makes sense to look into a battery solution. It just happens to be Mazda's manufacturing plant.
  - skhameneh 1y ago
pornel 1y ago
Those who TL;DRd - it's for the factory, not the cars! Old EV batteries are great for energy storage. A worse weight-to-capacity ratio doesn't matter for batteries sitting on the ground. A battery that holds only 70% of its original capacity is considered worn-out for EVs (and even replaced under warranty), but grid storage isn't driving anywhere, so any capacity left is still useful.
- whatever1 1y ago
  At the cell level they don’t degrade linearly. First it’s slow then it’s fast and then it’s abrupt collapse. You probably have noticed that yourself with old devices. Some do not hold charge even for a minute. With battery packs probably you can do some smart things to make the degradation curve look more linear, but again there is only so much you can do.
  - elevaet 1y ago
    Sudden failure in a big battery like these is usually due to a single cell failing, which can usually be replaced and then the battery pack is back to the 70% capacity or whatever. Probably in this context of scale it's worth doing the work of replacing bad cells.
    - DanielHB 1y ago
      Nobody is out there opening packs and replacing single cells, a battery pack is usually composed of multiple modules and each module can have multiple arrays of cells in series. You shutoff the whole array of cells around the cell that failed and the battery keeps working fine at reduced capacity. If it happens multiple times in the same module you replace a whole module of cells. The packs can usually be disassembled and parts replaced, but the modules are usually soldered down to prevent/mitigate thermal runaway. Also you can't mix cells of different chemistry or capacity together in the same module. So really if one fails in a module you replace the whole module. Or, in their case, just keep the module there disconnected until the whole battery fails then you scrap the whole battery pack. I assume it is not worth it for them to do any kind of replacements.
robin_reala 1y ago
If you’re ever in Hiroshima I can recommend a trip to the Mazda museum (Cosmo! 787B!), which includes a factory visit across a raised gantry. It’s free, but you need to book in advance: https://www.mazda.com/en/experience/museum/ https://www.mazda.com/en/experience/museum/
- jama211 1y ago
  I saw that 787B at the Adelaide motorsport festival, MAN that thing makes an incredible noise!!!
  - robin_reala 1y ago
    Also an iconic paint job. Mazda UK did a special edition MX-5 with a turbo and that paint to celebrate the Le Mans win: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-features-heroes/ph-heroes-mazda-mx-5-le-mans-24/24162 https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-features-heroes/ph-heroe...
    - jama211 1y ago
      That’s so cool
robofunk 1y ago
What's interesting is that if the batteries are being sourced from JDM cars the batteries are probably relatively young due to the average age of Japanese cars being relatively low (8.7 years) and the amount of yearly mileage is also half for JDM cars when compared to the US. So if you tried the same in the US it may not be as viable.
- wiredpancake 1y ago
  It's almost like EV batteries don't last long...
  - stanmancan 1y ago
    Turns out they're lasting much longer than expected: https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batteries-may-last-up-to-40-longer-than-expected https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batter...
    - wiredpancake 1y ago
      Nope. Why would Toyota even have an abundance of "old" EV batteries to begin with if they "lasted much longer than expected". I have a Toyota Landcruiser from 1990.
      - Tade0 1y ago
        Which most likely wouldn't pass Japanese vehicle inspection performed, IIRC, every two years. Also this means that it was never totalled. Plenty of cars suffer the latter and with safety systems as they are now, it's more likely than in the past.
      - ezfe 1y ago
        Toyota sourced these from many places, not just their own vehicles...
      - 542354234235 1y ago
        Cars get scrapped for many reasons and might not have anything to do with the battery pack. I don't know if you have ever heard of junkyards, but people have been going to them for years to get perfectly good parts from junked or totaled cars. The average age of Japanese vehicles is only 9 years old. Most people don't drive cars to 150,000 miles and beyond. If Toyota is using the batteries from older cars, that by definition means they were still useful batteries on those cars. I really don't know what to say about your 1990 vehicle comment. Good for you? Just because some people own a classic car doesn't change the fact that more than 99% of classic cars are scrap metal now.
wiredpancake 1y ago
[flagged]
- tomhow 1y ago
  I don't really know or care what any of this is meant to mean, but you can't comment like this on HN, regardless of the topic. We have to ban accounts that do it repeatedly. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45043113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45043113 and marked it off topic.
numpad0 1y ago
Looks like this is a PoC for Toyota's "sweep storage system" using "low voltage MOS", which seem to be a fancy invented term for a charge/discharge current limiter. [2] has photos of previous PoC from 2023. 1: https://global.toyota/jp/newsroom/corporate/43207750.html https://global.toyota/jp/newsroom/corporate/43207750.html 2: https://www.power-academy.jp/sp/electronics/report/rep03200.html https://www.power-academy.jp/sp/electronics/report/rep03200....
- mNovak 1y ago
  I think the "low voltage MOS switch" is just a roundabout way of saying MOSFET, which is very common in power electronics generally.
willlma 1y ago
This is not recycling. Recycling implies that you can produce the same product again many times; it's a sustainable practice. This is repurposing or upcycling. It's cool they're getting a second life, but they won't get a 3rd, 4th, Nth life unless the batteries are actually recycled into their component materials at end-of-life. It's kind of like the plastic brick companies: cool that plastic is being turned into a construction material, but it doesn't mean we can stop mining for the primary source material any time soon.

304 points by computerliker 1y ago

bluGill 1y ago

had to check: toyota owns 5% of mazda which makes them the largest shareholder.

throwawaymaths 1y ago
TIL as well
- themaninthedark 1y ago
  IIRC; Toyota started investing in Mazda to gain access to their engine technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyactiv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyactiv https://thedetroitbureau.com/2019/07/toyota-teaming-up-with-mazda-on-i-6-skyactiv-engine/ https://thedetroitbureau.com/2019/07/toyota-teaming-up-with-...
burkaman 1y ago
Technically a bank is a much larger shareholder (https://www.mazda.com/en/investors/stockinfo/situation/ https://www.mazda.com/en/investors/stockinfo/situation/), but Mazda and Toyota have been collaborating for a long time with joint manufacturing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Toyota_Manufacturing_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Toyota_Manufacturing_USA) and technology sharing. Toyota has similar arrangements with other companies like Subaru and Suzuki.
- kenhwang 1y ago
  That's a trust account though, they're just holding shares on behalf of fund managers or individuals. They also generally don't vote. So for all intents and purposes, Toyota is the largest singular voting shareholder.
redwall_hp 1y ago
Toyota also owns Daihatsu, which is a lesser known name in the US, but is a major maker of kei cars, which are huge in Japan and other parts of Asia. They also own Denso, which is the second largest auto parts company. And they partner with Subaru on some things, such as the Subaru BRZ and Toyota GR86, which are basically the same car with different badging.
- kenhwang 1y ago
  Toyota owns a de facto controlling stake in Subaru (~20%). Due to typical Japanese corporation by-laws, it only takes 33% share ownership for uncontested control of a corporation, and >50% of 33% means they'll never lose a vote for simple majority matters, which is basically everything except selling or dissolving the company. The 20% threshold is for a guaranteed seat on the board, which lets them put issues up for a vote.
  - omega3 1y ago
    > Due to typical Japanese corporation by-laws, it only takes 33% share ownership for uncontested control of a corporation It doesn’t make any sense.
    - kenhwang 1y ago
      Think of it like how Zuckerberg only owns 13% of Facebook but has >60% of the voting power. Japanese law allows corporations to only require 1/3 of voting shares present for quorum, and then a majority of those present to pass resolutions. It also allows cross-shareholders (like Toyota) to have special privileges over regular class shareholders (typically right of first refusal over any resolution). In practice, nothing much will pass without the largest shareholder's approval.
      - axus 1y ago
        How would they prevent two owners from owning 35% each? Could owner A vote something on Tuesday, and owner B vote something different on Wednesday?
lupusreal 1y ago
TIL Mazda isn't a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota. I thought it was, now I wonder where I got that from.
- bluGill 1y ago
  Ownership changes over time. At one time ford was in control. Which is why I checked - what toyota is doing makes no sense until you see current situations, now there is an obvious expected return on investment (if it works out of course- if it does they will do this to their own factories, if not they will write it off and not lose much.)
- bityard 1y ago
  Related: Ford once had a 33.4% stake in Mazda and there was a bunch of cross-pollination between the two companies at that time. My 2002 Mazda Protege was loaded with various parts bearing the FoMoCo logo. And Mazda engines/chassis powered a bunch of Ford cars world-wide.

zhyder 1y ago

Neat idea to mix batteries of different age and chemistries. I've wondered why EVs couldn't do that too with some power electronics and SW. If an EV battery could have multiple such modules, it'd: 1) Make it easier to carry a cheaper lighter less-natural-resources-consuming battery most of the time. Go to some "gas station" to rent and add more modules when taking a road trip 2) Make it cheaper to replace the 1 module used a lot at its EOL, thereby making EVs last longer and be viable as cheap used cars even past 10 years like ICE cars are 3) Allow easier upgrades as chemistry improves: solid-state, sodium ion, etc. Modules could be electrically tested for fit. I'd think the fit range would be quite wide (e.g. if one supported lower max discharge rates than another) given the headroom we have with EVs' power these days: they have far-more-than-needed power (which mostly comes for free with EV range). The tradeoff is that they'd need to be built to be modular with some standardization on module dimensions (maybe we'll have "ZZ" size like we have AA, C, etc today), and would take a tad more volume in the vehicle (though the limiting factor is weight rather than volume). Easily worthwhile over the current model with a huge monolithic pack.

momoschili 1y ago
I have to imagine that even accounting for the variance in internal resistance over a large set of batteries in a demanding application like a car is probably a host of problems makes this unattractive from the outset.
bri3d 1y ago
It's quite likely that lower discharge rate requirements are a large part of what makes this system function. Batteries with different internal resistance can work reasonably well even in a naive series system at low discharge rates but absolutely will not work at high discharge rates.
- lstodd 1y ago
  exactly. state-of-charge / depth-of-discharge vs lifetime accumulated "discharge stress" so to say also matters a lot. batteries aren't simple, even lifepo4 ones.
1y ago

skhameneh 1y ago

This seems very bizarre given Mazda is probably the least (of all "major" manufacturers) focused on EV and electric initiatives. Mazda only had one EV, the MX-30 EV. Less than 600 of the MX-30 EV were sold in the US during its production. It was a complete flop right out of production. Mazda leadership has been notorious for pushing rotary engines and shifting further away from EV initiatives.

momoschili 1y ago
Did you even read the article? It has nothing to do with producing EVs, they are using the old EV batteries to help power manufacturing facilities.
- Loudergood 1y ago
  This is very bizarre because that's exactly what GP was pointing out.
  - momoschili 1y ago
    seemed like they were pointing out that Mazda EV offerings are bad and that they don't worry about EV initiatives. That doesn't have much to do with studying how to put older batteries to use - EVs can be bad for many reasons. To me it seems perfectly reasonable to try to find a way to leverage depleted EV batteries for a factory - whether or not it's producing EVs or not.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
wallaBBB 1y ago
it's unrelated to the manufacturing of EVs. If any factory reaches a significant energy generation (usually this means from solar) it makes sense to look into a battery solution. It just happens to be Mazda's manufacturing plant.
- skhameneh 1y ago

pornel 1y ago

Those who TL;DRd - it's for the factory, not the cars! Old EV batteries are great for energy storage. A worse weight-to-capacity ratio doesn't matter for batteries sitting on the ground. A battery that holds only 70% of its original capacity is considered worn-out for EVs (and even replaced under warranty), but grid storage isn't driving anywhere, so any capacity left is still useful.

whatever1 1y ago
At the cell level they don’t degrade linearly. First it’s slow then it’s fast and then it’s abrupt collapse. You probably have noticed that yourself with old devices. Some do not hold charge even for a minute. With battery packs probably you can do some smart things to make the degradation curve look more linear, but again there is only so much you can do.
- elevaet 1y ago
  Sudden failure in a big battery like these is usually due to a single cell failing, which can usually be replaced and then the battery pack is back to the 70% capacity or whatever. Probably in this context of scale it's worth doing the work of replacing bad cells.
  - DanielHB 1y ago
    Nobody is out there opening packs and replacing single cells, a battery pack is usually composed of multiple modules and each module can have multiple arrays of cells in series. You shutoff the whole array of cells around the cell that failed and the battery keeps working fine at reduced capacity. If it happens multiple times in the same module you replace a whole module of cells. The packs can usually be disassembled and parts replaced, but the modules are usually soldered down to prevent/mitigate thermal runaway. Also you can't mix cells of different chemistry or capacity together in the same module. So really if one fails in a module you replace the whole module. Or, in their case, just keep the module there disconnected until the whole battery fails then you scrap the whole battery pack. I assume it is not worth it for them to do any kind of replacements.

robin_reala 1y ago

If you’re ever in Hiroshima I can recommend a trip to the Mazda museum (Cosmo! 787B!), which includes a factory visit across a raised gantry. It’s free, but you need to book in advance: https://www.mazda.com/en/experience/museum/ https://www.mazda.com/en/experience/museum/

jama211 1y ago
I saw that 787B at the Adelaide motorsport festival, MAN that thing makes an incredible noise!!!
- robin_reala 1y ago
  Also an iconic paint job. Mazda UK did a special edition MX-5 with a turbo and that paint to celebrate the Le Mans win: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-features-heroes/ph-heroes-mazda-mx-5-le-mans-24/24162 https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-features-heroes/ph-heroe...
  - jama211 1y ago
    That’s so cool

robofunk 1y ago

What's interesting is that if the batteries are being sourced from JDM cars the batteries are probably relatively young due to the average age of Japanese cars being relatively low (8.7 years) and the amount of yearly mileage is also half for JDM cars when compared to the US. So if you tried the same in the US it may not be as viable.

wiredpancake 1y ago
It's almost like EV batteries don't last long...
- stanmancan 1y ago
  Turns out they're lasting much longer than expected: https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batteries-may-last-up-to-40-longer-than-expected https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batter...
  - wiredpancake 1y ago
    Nope. Why would Toyota even have an abundance of "old" EV batteries to begin with if they "lasted much longer than expected". I have a Toyota Landcruiser from 1990.
    - Tade0 1y ago
      Which most likely wouldn't pass Japanese vehicle inspection performed, IIRC, every two years. Also this means that it was never totalled. Plenty of cars suffer the latter and with safety systems as they are now, it's more likely than in the past.
    - ezfe 1y ago
      Toyota sourced these from many places, not just their own vehicles...
    - 542354234235 1y ago
      Cars get scrapped for many reasons and might not have anything to do with the battery pack. I don't know if you have ever heard of junkyards, but people have been going to them for years to get perfectly good parts from junked or totaled cars. The average age of Japanese vehicles is only 9 years old. Most people don't drive cars to 150,000 miles and beyond. If Toyota is using the batteries from older cars, that by definition means they were still useful batteries on those cars. I really don't know what to say about your 1990 vehicle comment. Good for you? Just because some people own a classic car doesn't change the fact that more than 99% of classic cars are scrap metal now.

wiredpancake 1y ago

[flagged]

tomhow 1y ago
I don't really know or care what any of this is meant to mean, but you can't comment like this on HN, regardless of the topic. We have to ban accounts that do it repeatedly. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45043113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45043113 and marked it off topic.

numpad0 1y ago

Looks like this is a PoC for Toyota's "sweep storage system" using "low voltage MOS", which seem to be a fancy invented term for a charge/discharge current limiter. [2] has photos of previous PoC from 2023. 1: https://global.toyota/jp/newsroom/corporate/43207750.html https://global.toyota/jp/newsroom/corporate/43207750.html 2: https://www.power-academy.jp/sp/electronics/report/rep03200.html https://www.power-academy.jp/sp/electronics/report/rep03200....

mNovak 1y ago
I think the "low voltage MOS switch" is just a roundabout way of saying MOSFET, which is very common in power electronics generally.

willlma 1y ago

This is not recycling. Recycling implies that you can produce the same product again many times; it's a sustainable practice. This is repurposing or upcycling. It's cool they're getting a second life, but they won't get a 3rd, 4th, Nth life unless the batteries are actually recycled into their component materials at end-of-life. It's kind of like the plastic brick companies: cool that plastic is being turned into a construction material, but it doesn't mean we can stop mining for the primary source material any time soon.