7 ms·

As an American citizen, born and bred, I would literally, physically fight you on behalf of keeping Waterloo grads in America. Many of the best coworkers I've

by akavi 1y ago

As an American citizen, born and bred, I would literally, physically fight you on behalf of keeping Waterloo grads in America. Many of the best coworkers I've had the pleasure of working with, not to mention the founders of the company I spent over a quarter of my career at (Pagerduty).

philosophty 1y ago
[flagged]
- kanbara 1y ago
  there is no more american dream, and anyone who “creates” jobs in this economy and era of rampant hypercapitalism isn’t really enabling or transferring wealth. if there were ample americans to do these jobs, they should be able to get them. nationalism is a silly idea, anyway. and we should have free trade and movement with our biggest two allies. american exceptionalism is a joke
  - philosophty 1y ago
    You're arguing that Americans have no more right to success in America than non-Americans. I don't think many Americans will agree with you. And neither will most people from any other country agree about their own country's success.
    - dvrj101 1y ago
      > Americans have no more right to success in America than non-Americans. Americans literally voted to defund the education system, voted for administration(s) that will amplify spending money to hire foreigners to keep America center of top talent/skill across domains and most importantly voted for extreme capitalism. Indians or Canadians are not forcing US to hire them bud, https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/research/literacy-statistics https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/research/literacy-statisti...
      - philosophty 1y ago
        Major corporations are hiring them because they're cheaper not because there aren't well educated Americans available. There are more than 60 million college educated Americans. That's 50% more than the entire population of Canada. It's a very big and well educated country, bud.
  - mertleee 1y ago
    There have never been more unemployed new college grads studying computer science and computer engineering. There are ample americans ready to take these jobs. Boomers promulgated lies about "shortages" for years to lobby for relaxed visa schemes. Ironic you mention nationalism being silly, since Indians are some of the most openly caustic nationalists I encounter on a daily basis.
- akavi 1y ago
  A zero-sum mindset on a website dedicated to programming of all places? Where we literally create wealth out of nothing but coffee and the strength of our minds? My love for my country means I want it to be the greatest in the world. Waterloo grads make America better. Period.
  - philosophty 1y ago
    Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum. You're just hand-waiving away reality, which is a very non-programmer thing to do.
    - NikolaNovak 1y ago
      A wonderful Book on immigration, math, history, facts, and zero sum From an American author (Illustrated, to reach those who talk about "stealing American jobs from Americans!!!" a lot). From Amazon Canada, because I like fun too :-) "Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration" https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE
      - philosophty 1y ago
        I've never met anyone that argued for open borders that wasn't capable of isolating themselves from the negative effects. Like say, a tenured professor like Bryan Caplan. Open borders might be net-positive but would very predictably devastate the lives of poor people in America. Not that most people who advocate it know anything about being poor.
        NikolaNovak 1y ago
        Hang on, are we upset that immigrants are taking the jobs of poor people in America? I thought based on original post we were upset immigrants are taking high paying specialist jobs from the rich techies in San Francisco? Or are they just just taking all the jobs while miraculously not spending any money and not creating any demand and not participating in economy at all? I just want to understand this evil scourge appropriately. P.s. (And oh, boy, will I compete in the "knowing about being poor" with anybody on HN :)
- vachina 1y ago
  “Canadians”, touché.
- estearum 1y ago
  The sudden explosion in zero-sum thinking in the right wing will be studied for generations
  - heavyset_go 1y ago
    It's a defining characteristic of reactionary thought and it's already studied.
    - hshdhdhj4444 1y ago
      Funny how H1Bs are responsible for the destruction of the American labor force but also happen to be represented most in the jobs whose salary and size have grown the most in the U.S. over the past 2+ decades. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that H1Bs are most represented in the industry that has generated nearly all the growth that has been generated in America over the past 2-3 decades.
      - philosophty 1y ago
        I'm sure it's just a coincidence that slave labor is most represented in the industry that generated nearly all of America’s economic growth during the 18th and 19th century. Is the argument you're making, which is ridiculous. The success of an industry says nothing about how exploitative or unethical its practices are.
  - greesil 1y ago
    Not sudden.
  - philosophty 1y ago
    The way many people like yourself seem to have been completely fooled by major corporations wanting cheaper labor to exploit (through both legal, semi-legal, and illegal immigration) will be studied for generations. Their favorite trick (which you've adopted here) is to accuse people of being "racist" and "right wing" for objecting. For the record, you would have to search long and hard to find someone more opposed to Trump and his minions than myself. Bernie Sanders has the same basic viewpoint I've expressed. I have absolutely no hatred for anyone based on their origin or race. I am completely in favor of allowing as many people into this country as we can sustainably absorb, and even a little more. At the same time, I strongly object to prioritizing the desire of major corporations to exploit cheaper labor at the expense of American citizens.
- greesil 1y ago
  The American dream in silicon valley was built in part by these folks. They stay here and become Americans both culturally and legally and it's fantastic. Some of them even become Republicans. As others have pointed out it's not a zero sum game since human capital begets growth.
- didibus 1y ago
  The flip side should also be said, Canada and many other countries have talent drained by the US since they can't compete on pay. It's hard to say, but who knows what could have been if the top Canadians had have to start or join Canadian companies and didn't have the option to take a higher pay in the US.
  - okdood64 1y ago
    > Canada and many other countries have talent drained by the US since they can't compete on pay. What's the relevance here of this? Canada should make better opportunities for their citizens.
    - anal_reactor 1y ago
      That's "homeless people should just buy homes" level of thinking.
      - okdood64 1y ago
        A wealthy country's government, by most standards, is comparable to a homeless person?
    - RHSeeger 1y ago
      And the reverse of that is that folks in the US should agree to work for less; so that they get the jobs. Neither one is as easy as it sounds.
      - ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
        That is not the reverse. Canada should make better opportunities for it's citizens and so should the US.
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  Not only is this mindset disgusting, it is completely wrong. Labor is not zero sum, jobs create more jobs. Immigrants are what has made this country great, allowing immigration was critical to the US becoming the industrial/financial/tech capital of the world. Shutting down immigration will weaken our economy, it will cost americans jobs.
- faluzure 1y ago
  I like the way you think. As a Canadian, I’m disgusted that we educate our youth and then send them to the US to take jobs from Americans and pay taxes to the Americans. We should be putting them to work in Canada instead so we can build companies and industries in Canada instead of America. /s, but not really.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - kjellsbells 1y ago
    > We should be putting them to work in Canada instead so we can build companies and industries in Canada instead of America OK...I'll bite. Every Canadian government, of either party, has agreed with you for the last sixty years. Your country has excellent universities, the infrastructure is decent, the politics are non-violent...and yet people bail. I could say the same about the UK as well, but it's harder for their brains to drain to the US. So: why is Canada failing to hold on to their homegrown talent? Is it a "push out" of Canada (driving talent away) or a "pull in" to the US (America having something irresistible)?
jmspring 1y ago
What about the "masters" diploma mills?
- jmspring 1y ago
  Of course visa mill down votes..
Husieandr 1y ago
[flagged]
nickm12 1y ago
hear hear! I've worked with exceptional people from all sorts of backgrounds, but pound for pound, Waterloo CS grads are significantly better on average than grads from any other CS program. They start off way ahead, but also maintain that edge throughout their careers. Disclosure: I'm a US citizen with multiple CS degree from MIT and my son is studying CS at Waterloo now.
- jdefr89 1y ago
  Nice. I an researcher at MIT LL. In order to work at the lab you need to be a US citizen since a lot of it is federally funded. I tried to get my buddy, a Waterloo grad currently at Google, an interview but he is Canadian...

by akavi 1y ago

philosophty 1y ago

[flagged]

kanbara 1y ago
there is no more american dream, and anyone who “creates” jobs in this economy and era of rampant hypercapitalism isn’t really enabling or transferring wealth. if there were ample americans to do these jobs, they should be able to get them. nationalism is a silly idea, anyway. and we should have free trade and movement with our biggest two allies. american exceptionalism is a joke
- philosophty 1y ago
  You're arguing that Americans have no more right to success in America than non-Americans. I don't think many Americans will agree with you. And neither will most people from any other country agree about their own country's success.
  - dvrj101 1y ago
    > Americans have no more right to success in America than non-Americans. Americans literally voted to defund the education system, voted for administration(s) that will amplify spending money to hire foreigners to keep America center of top talent/skill across domains and most importantly voted for extreme capitalism. Indians or Canadians are not forcing US to hire them bud, https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/research/literacy-statistics https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/research/literacy-statisti...
    - philosophty 1y ago
      Major corporations are hiring them because they're cheaper not because there aren't well educated Americans available. There are more than 60 million college educated Americans. That's 50% more than the entire population of Canada. It's a very big and well educated country, bud.
- mertleee 1y ago
  There have never been more unemployed new college grads studying computer science and computer engineering. There are ample americans ready to take these jobs. Boomers promulgated lies about "shortages" for years to lobby for relaxed visa schemes. Ironic you mention nationalism being silly, since Indians are some of the most openly caustic nationalists I encounter on a daily basis.
akavi 1y ago
A zero-sum mindset on a website dedicated to programming of all places? Where we literally create wealth out of nothing but coffee and the strength of our minds? My love for my country means I want it to be the greatest in the world. Waterloo grads make America better. Period.
- philosophty 1y ago
  Some games (founding companies) are non-zero sum. Some (like employing Americans vs non-Americans) are zero sum. You're just hand-waiving away reality, which is a very non-programmer thing to do.
  - NikolaNovak 1y ago
    A wonderful Book on immigration, math, history, facts, and zero sum From an American author (Illustrated, to reach those who talk about "stealing American jobs from Americans!!!" a lot). From Amazon Canada, because I like fun too :-) "Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration" https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE https://a.co/d/7GrrzzE
    - philosophty 1y ago
      I've never met anyone that argued for open borders that wasn't capable of isolating themselves from the negative effects. Like say, a tenured professor like Bryan Caplan. Open borders might be net-positive but would very predictably devastate the lives of poor people in America. Not that most people who advocate it know anything about being poor.
      - NikolaNovak 1y ago
        Hang on, are we upset that immigrants are taking the jobs of poor people in America? I thought based on original post we were upset immigrants are taking high paying specialist jobs from the rich techies in San Francisco? Or are they just just taking all the jobs while miraculously not spending any money and not creating any demand and not participating in economy at all? I just want to understand this evil scourge appropriately. P.s. (And oh, boy, will I compete in the "knowing about being poor" with anybody on HN :)
vachina 1y ago
“Canadians”, touché.
estearum 1y ago
The sudden explosion in zero-sum thinking in the right wing will be studied for generations
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  It's a defining characteristic of reactionary thought and it's already studied.
  - hshdhdhj4444 1y ago
    Funny how H1Bs are responsible for the destruction of the American labor force but also happen to be represented most in the jobs whose salary and size have grown the most in the U.S. over the past 2+ decades. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that H1Bs are most represented in the industry that has generated nearly all the growth that has been generated in America over the past 2-3 decades.
    - philosophty 1y ago
      I'm sure it's just a coincidence that slave labor is most represented in the industry that generated nearly all of America’s economic growth during the 18th and 19th century. Is the argument you're making, which is ridiculous. The success of an industry says nothing about how exploitative or unethical its practices are.
- greesil 1y ago
  Not sudden.
- philosophty 1y ago
  The way many people like yourself seem to have been completely fooled by major corporations wanting cheaper labor to exploit (through both legal, semi-legal, and illegal immigration) will be studied for generations. Their favorite trick (which you've adopted here) is to accuse people of being "racist" and "right wing" for objecting. For the record, you would have to search long and hard to find someone more opposed to Trump and his minions than myself. Bernie Sanders has the same basic viewpoint I've expressed. I have absolutely no hatred for anyone based on their origin or race. I am completely in favor of allowing as many people into this country as we can sustainably absorb, and even a little more. At the same time, I strongly object to prioritizing the desire of major corporations to exploit cheaper labor at the expense of American citizens.
greesil 1y ago
The American dream in silicon valley was built in part by these folks. They stay here and become Americans both culturally and legally and it's fantastic. Some of them even become Republicans. As others have pointed out it's not a zero sum game since human capital begets growth.
didibus 1y ago
The flip side should also be said, Canada and many other countries have talent drained by the US since they can't compete on pay. It's hard to say, but who knows what could have been if the top Canadians had have to start or join Canadian companies and didn't have the option to take a higher pay in the US.
- okdood64 1y ago
  > Canada and many other countries have talent drained by the US since they can't compete on pay. What's the relevance here of this? Canada should make better opportunities for their citizens.
  - anal_reactor 1y ago
    That's "homeless people should just buy homes" level of thinking.
    - okdood64 1y ago
      A wealthy country's government, by most standards, is comparable to a homeless person?
  - RHSeeger 1y ago
    And the reverse of that is that folks in the US should agree to work for less; so that they get the jobs. Neither one is as easy as it sounds.
    - ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
      That is not the reverse. Canada should make better opportunities for it's citizens and so should the US.
HDThoreaun 1y ago
Not only is this mindset disgusting, it is completely wrong. Labor is not zero sum, jobs create more jobs. Immigrants are what has made this country great, allowing immigration was critical to the US becoming the industrial/financial/tech capital of the world. Shutting down immigration will weaken our economy, it will cost americans jobs.
faluzure 1y ago
I like the way you think. As a Canadian, I’m disgusted that we educate our youth and then send them to the US to take jobs from Americans and pay taxes to the Americans. We should be putting them to work in Canada instead so we can build companies and industries in Canada instead of America. /s, but not really.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- kjellsbells 1y ago
  > We should be putting them to work in Canada instead so we can build companies and industries in Canada instead of America OK...I'll bite. Every Canadian government, of either party, has agreed with you for the last sixty years. Your country has excellent universities, the infrastructure is decent, the politics are non-violent...and yet people bail. I could say the same about the UK as well, but it's harder for their brains to drain to the US. So: why is Canada failing to hold on to their homegrown talent? Is it a "push out" of Canada (driving talent away) or a "pull in" to the US (America having something irresistible)?

jmspring 1y ago

What about the "masters" diploma mills?

jmspring 1y ago
Of course visa mill down votes..

Husieandr 1y ago

[flagged]

nickm12 1y ago

hear hear! I've worked with exceptional people from all sorts of backgrounds, but pound for pound, Waterloo CS grads are significantly better on average than grads from any other CS program. They start off way ahead, but also maintain that edge throughout their careers. Disclosure: I'm a US citizen with multiple CS degree from MIT and my son is studying CS at Waterloo now.

jdefr89 1y ago
Nice. I an researcher at MIT LL. In order to work at the lab you need to be a US citizen since a lot of it is federally funded. I tried to get my buddy, a Waterloo grad currently at Google, an interview but he is Canadian...