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Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants
- TrueTom 1y agohttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/29/ucla-lawsuit-settlement-jewish-students https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jul/29/ucla-lawsuit...
- nosianu 1y agoJust for the record, not just on StackOverflow but everywhere it is good practice to not just post a link and nothing else. One should always include a TL;DR summary so that it is clear what the link is about without having to click. Especially on mobile, having to click to even know what some link is about is bad. Linked article summary: "UCLA agrees to $6.5m settlement with Jewish students over pro-Palestinian protests" > The University of California, Los Angeles, will pay nearly $6.5m to settle a lawsuit by Jewish students and a professor who said the university allowed antisemitic discrimination to take place on campus during last year’s pro-Palestinian protests. > The lawsuit alleged that with the “knowledge and acquiescence” of university officials, protesters prevented Jewish students from accessing parts of campus, and made antisemitic threats.
- afroboy 1y agoHoly shit, 6.5 millions because they got annoyed by people wanting to stop a genocide.
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoFuck it hurts me to say this as a former China hawk. But: How does Chinese immigration work for STEM? What does residency look like for someone making $500+ k in America? What are the Y Combinators? (No CCP Tans.)
- oldpersonintx2 1y ago[dead]
- barry-cotter 1y agoYou get a job offer for very large amounts of money and their HR will handle you getting a work visa. If you’re making very large amounts of money and still feel like living in China after five years apply for a green card. You would have to be insane to consider founding or investing in a Chinese startup when you could do so in Silicon Valley or even NYC or Austin.
- HSO 1y ago> You would have to be insane to consider founding or investing in a Chinese startup when you could do so in Silicon Valley or even NYC or Austin. With all due respect, you´re not thinking long-term, or dare I say even medium-term.
- Jasonwuyc 1y agocan speak to the yc part. one's called https://www.miracleplus.com/ https://www.miracleplus.com/, run by the former yc china head Lu Qi. similar investment terms and philosophy.
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoThank you.
- ralph84 1y agoRight, because in China universities can totally run afoul of the central government with no impact to their funding.
- msy 1y agoThe point is if the problem is the same in both you need to re-examine the pros and cons. Given the other issues in America and other advantages in China it's no longer a simple equation.
- ben_w 1y agoWhy reach for China before Europe? Similar sized economies; much smaller language barrier for an immigrant from the USA; and with stories like this being what makes you ask the question, relatively more freedom.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Why reach for China before Europe? We’re allies. Barring a massive geopolitical realignment, D.C. will take Europe down with it.
- ben_w 1y agoFollow up question, given your background: is TACO still true, or would you suggest retail investors divest away from US markets?
- padjo 1y agoIt’s pretty clear that the only numbers this administration are interested in are ones that support the narrative that the great leader is infallible.
- exe34 1y agoThey just fired the commissioner of Labour Statistics. The great thing about autocrats is that they neuter their own country pretty quickly. When you make it risky for people to give you bad news, you end up with missiles that don't work and capital ships that sink.
- padjo 1y agoYep. It’s odd to see classic third world dictator antics in the most powerful country in the world, but not at all unexpected given who’s running it.
- noir_lord 1y ago> the most powerful country in the world. For now, I live in the former most powerful country in the world prior to the rise of the US.
- kangalioo 1y agoWhich is, the UK? China?
- tialaramex 1y agoThe UK. It had this huge navy, which amusingly is where its central bank comes from. An English Parliament wanted to buy the greatest navy the world had ever seen but that's very expensive, so their cunning scheme was, license some business people to run an exclusive Bank of England, secured by the word of the British government, the income from this funds a navy and the successors of that navy were still dominant into the 20th century. The fact that the Bank of England was historically a private business is awkward when it comes to explaining to some modern country why it's not OK that their central bank is giving the leader's nephew $100M in unsecured loans, and this sort of discomfort is part of why it was bought by the British government and gradually ceased operating as a private bank in my lifetime. When I was younger I knew people whose mortgage was issued by the country's central bank. Not like celebrities or politicians or anything, just bureaucrats who got a good deal, sort of "mates rates" but for a house loan.
- Almondsetat 1y agoIt's really telling when an invaluable intellectual powerhouse specialized in a non politicized field gets its funds taken away because of politics Edit: This is a comment about the administration, not Tao.
- ekianjo 1y agothats why they should refrain from engaging in politics in the first place. the day the wind changes you lose.
- kzrdude 1y agoThen it's maybe not a free country anymore if you have to think about how your actions are perceived by the president in power at every step.
- ekianjo 1y agoI hate to state the obvious but if your livelihood depends on federal grants then by all means you need to take in account the fact that oresidents can change after a few years.
- sigmoid10 1y agoThere has been no precedent for what is happening right now. This is literally Project 2025 and the "you'll never have to vote again" people trying to turn the US into a dictatorship. If people don't speak out now, we might have MAGA in power for the next 25 years just like Putin was for the last.
- malcolmgreaves 1y ago[flagged]
- delusional 1y agoThat's the thinking of pure power politics which is antithetical to modernity and democracy. It's a complete reversal to pre-enlightenment feudalism, where the lord has complete control over your fate.
- tomp 1y ago[flagged]
- nimchimpsky 1y ago[dead]
- padjo 1y agoI know very little about this topic but the example of racism you provided seems weak to me. It seems scientifically justifiable to want a person from a minority to do work on minority under-representation in scientific studies.
- wat10000 1y agoYeah, better to take that money from UCLA and give it to ICE so they can be totally not racist with it.
- fabian2k 1y agoAntisemitism is a pretext here, the Trump administration is targeting organizations that it considers too liberal.
- tomp 1y agoWell, obviously. “Too liberal” just means “racist” these days. It’s an evil ideology, the fight against it is righteous.
- m101 1y agoUCLA has an endowment of 3.8bn$. Whilst I'm sympathetic to their desire to be further government financed for the work they do, I feel like government financing should be made available to those that actually need the money. The attitude that you have access to government funds even if you have the ability to pay yourself needs to change.
- bigDinosaur 1y agoEndowments are often earmarked for certain use cases. They aren't necessarily permitted to spend it as they like.
- xdennis 1y agoMaybe taxes should be the same. I don't mind being taxed as much as I hate my taxes going to the wrong thing.
- kergonath 1y agoNow, find out if you agree with 10 random people about what is the right or the wrong thing.
- m101 1y agoThis is unfairly downvoted but strikes at the core of the matter. Democracy is fundamentally oppressive of a minority (and often majority). A vote in favour of a government to fund "basic research" (as it is generously described) is fundamentally not a vote to fund basic research, but rather a vote to expropriate wealth from a group that doesn't want it to be financed in order to finance it.
- klooney 1y agoIn California, your taxes are mostly earmarked for k-14 education, and the legislature can't change that.
- padjo 1y agoUCLA gets about $800m a year in federal grants. $3.8bn wouldn’t last long if they were to self fund that.
- trhway 1y agoAmong the impacts of suspension of such science grants is the impact on PhD students. The PhD students themselves would do fine - they would just leave science and go to programming, finance, etc. - and most will that way do financially even better than staying in science. The issue here is the future of the science - for the precedent one can look at the Russian science today as similar thing - leaving science for better pastures en masse - happened there in the 90ies. China is producing 77K STEM PhDs in 2025 and that number is quickly growing year over year, US - 42K/year. (and just ponder for a moment that those 77K are the smartest out of 1.5B population of a country where STEM is all the rage - those 77K are really top line smart and driven ones with all the support from the state)
- m_a_g 1y ago> UCLA was “failing to promote a research environment free of antisemitism and bias” Is Trump using antisemitism as an excuse to crack down on liberal universities? Because this will make people only more critical of Israel.
- pbiggar 1y agoYes, this is part of Project Esther by the Heritage Foundation. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/18/us/project-esther-heritage-foundation-palestine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/18/us/project-esther-heritag... US universities do a lot of research on Palestine and Israel's occupation and apartheid there. In addition, universities are naturally liberal and are targets of the right wing anti-education movement.
- mlrtime 1y agoYou call it anti-education, they'd call it anti-indoctrination. In the end, its all political warfare. Illegal immigration being similar.
- tzs 1y agoProbably yes, since antisemitism doesn't seem to be an impediment to getting jobs in his administration [1]. [1] https://www.npr.org/2025/05/14/nx-s1-5387299/trump-white-house-antisemitism https://www.npr.org/2025/05/14/nx-s1-5387299/trump-white-hou...
- pbiggar 1y agoRemember that these claims of antisemitism are all false. What they actually mean is "they had a student encampment calling out Israel's genocide in Gaza and occupation of Palestine, that the US supports with weapons, troops, UN vetos, and bad faith negotiation"
- mikevm 1y agoThere is no evidence of a genocide in Gaza, so ironically your claims are all false. Anti-semitism is the least of the problems of these Universities. They promote blatant racism and discrimination against certain groups while claiming to help others. Finally they are being punished, and there's nothing they can do in court because the evidence is literally against them.
- wat10000 1y agoAnd remember that this actually stokes antisemitism. Israel is demonstrably out there committing atrocities. If officials are conflating anti-Israel with anti-Jew then it prompts people opposed to those atrocities to oppose Jews.
- jjgreen 1y agoThe cynic in me thinks this is deliberate.
- wat10000 1y agoI don’t think this administration cares about Jews one way or the other. “Antisemitism” is a cudgel to use on their enemies. Any other effect is incidental.
- jkhdigital 1y agoThe current war was initiated via a sneak attack by Hamas militants from Gaza who committed rather unspeakable atrocities against Israeli civilians. Not justifying their actions but as an uninvolved third party I’m going to at least acknowledge the history of the situation before judging their actions.
- HSO 1y agoall the best people are going to move to china anyway stop rearranging chairs on the deck of a sinking ship and move on terence
- spwa4 1y agoReally? The situation in China (and Europe, for that matter) is far worse. Obviously Europe is much better than China for academics, but the US is still miles above that. So sorry, that won't happen. This will "just" disappear, with no replacement.
- lars_francke 1y agoIn which way is the situation far worse in Europe?
- davrosthedalek 1y agoFunding levels are lower. Salaries are lower. In physics, from the places I know in the US, about half of the faculty is foreign, and about 30% is German. This is at top universities. That wouldn't be the case if these people would find similar conditions in Europe. But it can change quickly.
- Hnrobert42 1y agoHard to argue it's lower than zero. Not to mention that low and consistent is better than moderate but at the whim of a tyrant.
- davrosthedalek 1y agoFunding is always a lottery. It's not like everyone gets some, but it's less. It's more that less people get funds. So you really have to look at the average. But you are right. That's why I said: can change quickly.
- VerminOctopus1 1y ago
- francasso 1y agoMaybe it's time to move to Europe or China
- numbers_guy 1y agoThere is nowhere to run and hide. Europe is worse than the US on this front. China also demands party loyalty. In a sense this is just the human condition. The ruling faction demands loyalty. Only a very advanced human civilization could move past that and allow criticism of the ruling class. Maybe the US had achieved that for a brief movement in the past or maybe it was just an illusion. EDIT: For people wondering why I think it's worse in Europe, it's because in Europe the ruling class and the universities are on the same side. And when I say Europe, I mean UK, France and Germany.
- delusional 1y agoWhat are you on about? I live in Europe. We don't terminate all contact to random universities because they said something the führer didn't like. If you truly believe that the whole world is "just as bad" as this, then you are unimaginably far to the right.
- amelius 1y agoI agree with you, but that choice of word doesn't make much sense here.
- abc123abc123 1y ago[flagged]
- luckylion 1y agoI wouldn't say it's "just as bad", but I also couldn't imagine a big university publicly and strongly going against the federal government in Germany on "culture war" issues. If you're fully aligned, there's no telling what would happen if you weren't, and you can't use "nothing happens" as evidence that nothing would happen - you're always allowed to share the opinions of whoever funds you. If Germany got a right-wing government on the federal level, I expect to see either funding being slashed or universities adjusting their positions.
- raincole 1y agoI have all my respect to Tao. But I think it's very justified for the federal to do something (not necessarily this thing) against institutions that show racist behaviors. e.g. Little Rock Nine.
- malcolmgreaves 1y agoAnd no college being defunded right now has shown any racist behaviors whatsoever. So are you in support of the current defunding?
- raincole 1y agohttps://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-07-29/ucla-settles-lawsuit-jewish-students https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-07-29/ucla-set... > The lawsuit, filed more than a year ago, alleged that by not immediately ordering the encampment to be taken down, UCLA provided support to pro-Palestinian activists who “enforced” what it termed a “Jew Exclusion Zone,” prohibiting Jewish students and staff from passing through the camp’s makeshift barricades. Personally I think this is a textbook racist behavior. Replace "Jewish" with "black" and "Palestinian' with "white" and see if you agree. I personally firmly believe if white activists try to enforce a "Non Black Zone" in the campus, the college administration has a responsibility to take it down and discipline said activists. I'm not sure if this defunding is justified though, as it seems that UCLA has settled this case and the defunding sounds retrospective.
- lordofgibbons 1y agoYou can term anything whatever you want, doesn't make it true. The "Jew Exclusion Zone" term was coined by the plaintiff in this case. A lot of the college protesters are in fact Jewish. This is a fact the pro-Israel propaganda would rather you not know about. Otherwise, how could they claim "antisemitism" whenever you criticize the actions of the foreign country.
- davrosthedalek 1y ago
- mikevm 1y agoThe only people to blame for this are the Universities who are blatantly violating civil rights law -- even after a Supreme Court ruling! Terence and other academics who have had nothing to do with promotion of this blatant discrimination should be angry at their University leadership and administrators for this outcome, not the Trump administration who is doing THE RIGHT THING. The faculty should take this opportunity to make the Universities drastically reduce the dead weight of administrators who have grown much more than faculty and produce no value.
- kashunstva 1y ago> blatantly violating civil rights law That’s not at all clear. Regardless, there is no proportionality in the actions that this administration is taking against UCLA and other eminent universities. The tools for righting civil rights issues in education should be through consent decrees that permit the DOJ to set criteria and monitor for compliance. The destruction of a large part of the research enterprise for these claims, particularly when the claims are widely regarded as nonsense, is heavy-handed and gives the distinct impression of another agenda.
- coderatlarge 1y agoi would personally like to see organizations of any scale self-publish metrics about their performance on their SLAs and at least trends on their unit efficiency (throughput latency and cost per main types of work items). for the state department time to issue a passport passports issued per unit time internal cost to issue a passport etc. for the irs corresponding metrics for processing a return or an audit. for id.me success in catching bad actors failures in incorrectly blocking legitimate users. for university administrative departments , thoughtful corresponding things that capture what they do all day in understandable and defensible ways.
- derbOac 1y agoUCLA recently reached a settlement, which among other things included “opposing calls to boycott Israel". I'm not sure how boycotting a government engaged in what many legal organizations have identified as genocide counts as civil rights discrimination. If anything it seems to violate civil rights of Palestinian Americans and citizens in general. Also, Tao points out maybe the most important criticism of the Trump administration, which is how is cutting off all federal research funding improving the ability of faculty to do their work, given that the reason for an antidiscrimination claim in that setting is that discrimination prevents faculty from doing their work?
- man4 1y ago[dead]
- mehulashah 1y agoThis is a tragedy. Our pre-eminence as a scientific and industrial powerhouse that really began post WWII is now disintegrating because of the actions of a few. The funding being pulled from Terence Tao and his institute without due process is not the start, it's merely one casualty among many that began at the start of this administration. This is like cutting one's nose to spite one's face.
- watwut 1y agoIt is not actions of the few. This is action of many. There is whole party apparatus behind this, public support among conservative voters, support of tech leaders etc.
- kergonath 1y agoThis. It’s easy to rationalise what can be seen as completely counter-productive and irrational actions as random acts of deranged minds. But Trump and proto-fascist republicans have genuine popular support. For terrible reasons, but still. And we can argue about how the US political system plays in their favour by giving them more power than their raw numbers would suggest, but even then they are a significant part of the population. Even more so since they managed to capture the broligarchs. To my worried eyes this looks too much like Russia circa 2000 for comfort. Or Turkey early in Erdogan’s reign. Whatever happens, it will be painful and damaging.
- throw0101d 1y ago> It is not actions of the few. This is action of many. The US House of Representatives has 219 GOPers that voted to pass certain legislation. The US Senate has 50 GOPers that voted to pass certain legislation and voted to confirm many appointments. A large swath of the US public voted to put those 219+50 people into Congress and voted to put a convicted felon [1] and rapist [2] in the White House. [1] https://apnews.com/article/trump-trial-deliberations-jury-testimony-verdict-85558c6d08efb434d05b694364470aa0 https://apnews.com/article/trump-trial-deliberations-jury-te... [2] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/30/appeals-court-upholds-trump-sexual-abuse-defamation-liability-verdict https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/12/30/appeals-court-upho...
- jlnthws 1y agoCome to Europe!
- lordofgibbons 1y agoIt's such a tragedy that we're deliberately destroying the very engine of our global science and tech research leadership. All for the sake of making the pro-Israeli lobby happy under the guise of protecting against "antisemitism". The feds are forcing the universities to either protect the freedom of speech by banning peaceful protests against the genocide, or to have the universities research funding cut. Given that so far we (U.S) have been unmatched in science and tech research, this is probably the biggest case of "self own" in recent memory.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- lmpdev 1y agoCome home Terry, we miss you - Australia
- Havoc 1y ago>on the grounds that UCLA was “failing to promote a research environment free of antisemitism and bias” This really has very Germany 1930s vibes even if the direction of the anti is flipped.
- kergonath 1y agoIt is purely Orwellian. They gaslit everyone into thinking that opposing an intolerant theocracy in Israel, and by extension the burgeoning autocracy in the US, was antisemitism, while at the same time moaning about Jews controlling and ruining the US. This naked cynicism is disgusting.
- jkhdigital 1y agoIntolerant theocracy? And you’re using this phrase to refer to Israel?
- aaomidi 1y agoState sponsor of genocide might be a more apt term, I agree. Intolerant is way too weak of a term.
- qcnguy 1y agoFlipping the direction isn't some minor detail. That "flip" was the reason for the Allies to fight the second world war! The universities implement Nazi-like policies in which they try to keep Jews out illegally, others fought against them. If you aren't sure which side are in the wrong here, you need to ask yourself if it's yours.
- fxtentacle 1y ago3 months ago, we were all wondering why the EU proudly launched their "Choose EU for Science" campaign, despite having much lower funding levels than in the US. If they predicted this, then their actions would make a lot of sense. It is notoriously difficult for scientists to change careers after years in research. For people cut off from US funding like this, a EU-guaranteed middle-class income will appear much more attractive than hoping for this newly unpredictable US situation to turn out well.
- kergonath 1y agoBoth the EU and its large member-states need to significantly ramp up funding to exfiltrate scientists from the US. This could be a force multiplier as important as getting German scientists was after WWII, or Russian ones during the Cold War. It would also be a tremendous amount of progress for not that much money, all things considered. And I say this with no joy whatsoever, because all these developments are damaging great collaborations and personal relationships with friends and colleagues in the US.
- jltsiren 1y agoAs a fraction of GDP, the EU spends more on academic research than the US. And if you add the UK, the total is also higher in absolute terms. (The US spends more on R&D, but that's mostly business spending.) From an individual perspective, the funding situation is (used to be?) better in the US than in Europe. Mostly because there is less competition, as the salary gap between the academia and the industry is wider in the US. Americans are less likely to do a PhD and pursue a career in the academia than Europeans.
- n3storm 1y ago"prediction" skills was not needed. Intelligent, smart, critical citizens are a nuisance for absocapitalism goals.
- bboygravity 1y agoScientists please come to the EU, we can't pay you much, you won't be able to find a place to live and we don't do air conditioning, but plz come. /s
- curseofcasandra 1y ago> if nothing else this unprecedented decision does not appear to have followed the usual standards of due process On par for this administration.
- niemandhier 1y agoEvery phd student of Terence Tao is probably welcome at the Max Planck Institute For Mathematics: https://www.mpim-bonn.mpg.de/application https://www.mpim-bonn.mpg.de/application Usually you need 2 letters of recommendation, I’d strongly assume that in the case of Tao one is enough. Generally please consider the new „ Max Planck Transatlantic Program“: https://www.mpg.de/25034916/max-planck-transatlantic-program https://www.mpg.de/25034916/max-planck-transatlantic-program
- ktallett 1y agoWhilst I would imagine that to be the case, you should at the start of a phd have more than one professor across the many you have come into contact with that is willing to vouch for both your mathematical ability and your personality and ability to fit in a team. I don't think anyone should get in just on the relation to Tao, likewise it is also important that they move to a program that they have an interest in. I do hope those students find an appropriate course for themselves as this must be extremely challenging for them both regarding their career and also mentally and socially.
- NullCascade 1y agoHow is that going to help? Germany has an even lower threshold for criticism of Israel and organized Judaism than the US. Mainland Europe (excluding Germany) is generally way more pro-Palestinian than the US. However that doesn't extend to our institutions. Case in point: Dutch riot police brutally beating up University of Amsterdam students for setting up UCLA/Columbia-style tent blockades. If you're an American academic or student you can come to Europe and continue both your work and pro-Palestinian activism within the Overton window of mainstream European consensus on the two-state solution. Anything that is more radical than that might get you in the same level of trouble or worse than the US. Basically Europe is a non-solution for pro-Palestinian American academics and students.
- smugma 1y agoThe problem Tao speaks of is his funding, not pro or anti Israel demonstrations. The US is coupling student politics to academic research funding. Is that done in Germany or other parts of Europe or Australia?
- belter 1y agoTerence Tao work on the Prime Radiant predicts the third crisis. Trump is the Mule.
- mastermage 1y agoIt is time for operation Büroklammer.
- jackmottatx 1y ago[dead]
- oulipo 1y agoWe'd be VERY happy to welcome Terrence Tao or his graduate students in France! Please come!
- mellosouls 1y agoSuspension already being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44755429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44755429
- oefrha 1y agoBeing a PhD student at UCLA (or over public universities) was arguably risky in the best of times. When I applied to grad school a decade ago, I got an offer from UCLA Math and it was notable that funding was not guaranteed beyond the first year, meaning you may need to look for your own funding. Same thing with the offer from Berkeley Physics. In contrast, the private universities like Princeton guaranteed funding throughout the normal duration of the PhD program (you’re welcome to bring your own grants, but if you don’t and can’t find an advisor/lab to provide for you, the department with fix you up with TA jobs and stuff). Now it seems the public institutions got 100x shittier still (not saying private ones aren’t in a bind).
- omnee 1y agoOne of the worst excesses of this admin has been the attack on science and mathematics, stemming from their deliberate ignorance of evidence. A setback for the researchers and a tragedy for the people that might benefit from their work, the nation and the world as a whole.
- amai 1y agoThe Trump government probably thinks: Who needs mathematicans, if we already have the best AI in the world?
- djkivi 1y agoA-1, it's how math is done.
- rossant 1y agoShameful. What a disgrace.
- biggerbiggar 1y ago[flagged]
- wat10000 1y agoIs this the “write a reply that doesn’t make sense as a reply” thread or something?
- tomhow 1y agoWe've banned this account for evidently being a single-purpose account for attacking another user (by virtue of its name). You're welcome to register a new account with a non-troll username if you intend to respect the guidelines and HN's intended purpose. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- biggerbiggar 1y agoNo unspeakable crimes would cause Paul to open his eyes and think about what he's busy doing.
- biggerbiggar 1y ago[dead]
- Henchman21 1y agoWelp this is a total shit show.
- bsy_at_play 1y agoThe cultural revolution only set China back by 50-60 years. Our grandchildren will be okay ...
- avoutos 1y agoThis is only a problem until UCLA makes a deal with the gov't, like Columbia, and gets its grant money restored.
- dang 1y agoRecent and related: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44755429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44755429 - Aug 2025 (332 comments)