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Thanks for breaking that down. As someone doing weightlifting, this is the primary reason I don't bother with vegetarian meats. They actually taste pretty good

Thanks for breaking that down. As someone doing weightlifting, this is the primary reason I don't bother with vegetarian meats. They actually taste pretty good IMO, but they don't offer nutritional benefits commensurate with animal meat. It's a shame, really. I'd gladly incorporate them if I could get a similar protein : calorie ratio.

kelipso 1y ago
Plus whatever chemicals (yes, I will keep using this word, thank you) they put in it for texture, flavor, preservation, etc.
9dev 1y ago
There’s very successful vegan lifters and athletes, though. It’s absolutely possible to thrive without meat and dairy products.
- unlikelytomato 1y ago
  if you can digest it, maybe. Thrive is somewhat open to debate. Some can handle it naturally. There is a huge amount of survivor bias in self reported vegans. They never get interviews with everyone who tried it and dropped it to uncover why.
  - 9dev 1y ago
    Whether people dropped being vegan doesn’t have anything to do with the absolutely validated fact that a vegan diet can sustain muscle growth. Professional athletes might want to put some additional work in calculating nutrient intake, but that’s the same for any kind of diet.
    - unlikelytomato 1y ago
      The research on optimal protein for athletes is pretty well established. I weigh all of my food and track every macro. If I ate the recommended amount of protein from plant sources, I would be grossly overweight from the additional carb and fat calories. I try plants based every year or so. It just doesn't work for my body. Not to mention the dramatic IBS-like symptoms I get even after forcing it for weeks on end to "adapt" to plant only. I switch back to my old diet and all my issues disappear in about 72 hours. After 15 attempts, I will probably try again, but it's not looking good. Maybe someday when I stop all athletic endeavors it will work out for me
      - seec 1y ago
        I came to the same conclusion. I always wonder if they are completely delusional and ignore every issue to favor their bias or just don't have the problems that we get. From spending quite a lot of time with those people, my opinion is that they generally are pretty dishonest and will deny the truth to fit their ideology.
        xk_id 1y ago
        Just drink protein shakes? There are soy protein ones that are completely inoffensive and pea protein which isn’t tasty but much cheaper. Do professional athletes actually eat only meat to meet their protein requirements? Because even if you’re not a vegan I imagine that amount of meat every day gets pretty gross.
        seec 1y ago
        So far, I have not been impressed to say the least. First there is the problem that they often use sucralose or another weird sweetener that my digestive system does not like at all (very annoying reflux) and then of course they often taste weird at best and mostly not good at all. It's also very hard to incorporate properly into other stuff because being protein, it fluffs up and creates strong structure that takes volumes; good luck cooking/baking it. But yes, I could try some more references to see if there is something decent. I very much doubt so because the fundamentals are not aligned for this. Luckily, I am relatively small and I do triathlon training, not weight training so I don't care as much for volume and mass. Yet the need is still there though and it is very noticeable when I fail at balancing the diet (it is extremely easy to indulge in the pleasurable carbs, that are systematically cheaper as well). I need at least 80g of protein per (training) day and it's more challenging than it may look. So, I try to balance things with various sources but animal meat is by far the easiest to work with. For example, I like nuts a lot but they carry a shit ton of fat with their protein, so it becomes hard to get enough carbs in the caloric budget. Of course, at this rate meat becomes just another thing you have to eat and is not really special or a pleasure. But the thing is that it's much less terrible than a protein shake, there are also plenty of things that you get from animals' meat that I doubt are truly replaceable with today's limited knowledge. I already have to pay close attention to what I eat and cannot indulge too much in some things, I'm not really keen on making my food experience completely miserable; I wish I could because it would be much cheaper/easier this way. But I think people presenting meat as a pleasure are ideologically motivated. I dont think killing/eating animals is something humans ever did for "pleasure", it was done out of necessity and not much else. I was never a big meat eater, particularly in my youth I was very addicted to sugar and would rather avoid eating meat as much as possible. It contributed to a small frame/build. Now that I'm older and training hard I eat meat not because I like it that much but because I have to. If you ask me, I would be stoked if I could survive just on chips, candy, nuts, or even just flavored pasta. Those things I can eat unlimited amount with no problem at all. Turns out it's not really what's needed...
cj 1y ago
I dunno. I track macros religiously with daily protein/fat/carb targets for weight lifting. I don't care much about the macros of each individual meal (or any individual ingredient). When dinner comes around, I'm cooking whatever meal will let me hit my targets for the day. If I already got most my protein in, I'll happily eat something with "bad" protein/calorie ratio. Granted, 99% of people don't track food intake, so yea, probably makes sense to optimize food nutrition for the average person eating an average meal looking for an average balance of macros on a per-meal basis. I guess my point is there's a time and place for virtually all foods (including junk food... bodybuilders regularly snack on things like sour patch kids during workouts). Critiquing beyond burgers for their macro breakdown doesn't make sense to me. But criticisms around the level of processing is 100% valid IMO. The last package I opened up quite literally smelled like dog food. Edit: Also FWIW, I'm a vegetarian (although eat meat maybe once every 1-2 weeks, sometimes beef). Despite that, I'm easily able to get 200+ grams of protein a day. If I took protein powder out of my diet completely, I'd still be able to hit 150g/day at least without really trying.
- proee 1y ago
  You are not a vegetarian
  - cj 1y ago
    If you wear vegetarianism on your sleeve for philosophical reasons, yea that’s not me. I simply prefer not eating a lot of meat. Next time I’ll say majority-vegetarian minority-carnivore?
    - vlod 1y ago
      I hate the term, but I've heard 'flexitarian' used to describe this.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Out of curiosity, how do you get 150g/day of full proteins? For instance, eating lentils, which is one of the most proteinated vegetable, bring 18g of proteins per 100g, along with 40g of carbs. You also have to eat a comparable amount of cereal to get a full protein chain. Given that amount of proteins you mention, this requires eating a very large volume of food (cereals and graminacae swell with water during cooking). I always wondered how vegetarians could reach a highly proteinic diet as a result!
aziaziazi 1y ago
Did you try Tempeh? 20gr of protein / 150cal. It looks like a steak. It's god's food: high prots, fibers, iron, vitamins, unsaturated fats. Low carbs and sodium. Super digestive. Super versatile: from burgers to bolognese to barbecue to everything, even sweety for the courageous. My easy goto is a dip of whatever open sauce I already have and 1 min micro wave heating. A bit more time ? Fried on the pan with soy sauce, olive oil and some herbs afterwards.
- anon84873628 1y ago
  The parent said "vegetarian meats" so I hope we can assume that's not meant to include tempeh and tofu (but rather things like TVP or mycoprotein products). And while we're on the subject, Mike Israetel from Renaissance Periodization gives soy protein high marks for body builders. Good macros, good price, and highest amino acid profile score after milk/meat/eggs. Having tofu on hand is definitely helpful during a bulk.
  - unlikelytomato 1y ago
    if only soy and beans didn't rip my digestion to shreds.
    - aziaziazi 1y ago
      Tempeh is easier to digest: the soy (fibers and amino acids) is pre-eaten by the mold. I can drink milk but feel the same as you do with beans. When it’s fermented cheese I’m totally fine. Can you eat falafels, tofu or slip peas? If so the hull may be the cause. Also beans trigger gaz on many people because they don’t eat much insoluble fibers, but after a while of regular consumption it comes back to normal. Don’t hurt yourself through, take care.
      - unlikelytomato 1y ago
        I can eat maybe one serving every few days regardless of the source. I can eat a lot of various fruits without issue(high fiber too). tofu is mostly ok. I have tried about once a year for 15-20 years. I can eat a block of cheese a day and feel great. same with extremely lean chicken. When I try plants only without the problem foods, my energy and recover drops. I get depressed and I have huge protein cravings. If I try to squash that hunger with fats or carbs, I get fat. Just never been able to find a sustainable solution for my body

kelipso 1y ago

Plus whatever chemicals (yes, I will keep using this word, thank you) they put in it for texture, flavor, preservation, etc.

9dev 1y ago

There’s very successful vegan lifters and athletes, though. It’s absolutely possible to thrive without meat and dairy products.

unlikelytomato 1y ago
if you can digest it, maybe. Thrive is somewhat open to debate. Some can handle it naturally. There is a huge amount of survivor bias in self reported vegans. They never get interviews with everyone who tried it and dropped it to uncover why.
- 9dev 1y ago
  Whether people dropped being vegan doesn’t have anything to do with the absolutely validated fact that a vegan diet can sustain muscle growth. Professional athletes might want to put some additional work in calculating nutrient intake, but that’s the same for any kind of diet.
  - unlikelytomato 1y ago
    The research on optimal protein for athletes is pretty well established. I weigh all of my food and track every macro. If I ate the recommended amount of protein from plant sources, I would be grossly overweight from the additional carb and fat calories. I try plants based every year or so. It just doesn't work for my body. Not to mention the dramatic IBS-like symptoms I get even after forcing it for weeks on end to "adapt" to plant only. I switch back to my old diet and all my issues disappear in about 72 hours. After 15 attempts, I will probably try again, but it's not looking good. Maybe someday when I stop all athletic endeavors it will work out for me
    - seec 1y ago
      I came to the same conclusion. I always wonder if they are completely delusional and ignore every issue to favor their bias or just don't have the problems that we get. From spending quite a lot of time with those people, my opinion is that they generally are pretty dishonest and will deny the truth to fit their ideology.
      - xk_id 1y ago
        Just drink protein shakes? There are soy protein ones that are completely inoffensive and pea protein which isn’t tasty but much cheaper. Do professional athletes actually eat only meat to meet their protein requirements? Because even if you’re not a vegan I imagine that amount of meat every day gets pretty gross.
        seec 1y ago
        So far, I have not been impressed to say the least. First there is the problem that they often use sucralose or another weird sweetener that my digestive system does not like at all (very annoying reflux) and then of course they often taste weird at best and mostly not good at all. It's also very hard to incorporate properly into other stuff because being protein, it fluffs up and creates strong structure that takes volumes; good luck cooking/baking it. But yes, I could try some more references to see if there is something decent. I very much doubt so because the fundamentals are not aligned for this. Luckily, I am relatively small and I do triathlon training, not weight training so I don't care as much for volume and mass. Yet the need is still there though and it is very noticeable when I fail at balancing the diet (it is extremely easy to indulge in the pleasurable carbs, that are systematically cheaper as well). I need at least 80g of protein per (training) day and it's more challenging than it may look. So, I try to balance things with various sources but animal meat is by far the easiest to work with. For example, I like nuts a lot but they carry a shit ton of fat with their protein, so it becomes hard to get enough carbs in the caloric budget. Of course, at this rate meat becomes just another thing you have to eat and is not really special or a pleasure. But the thing is that it's much less terrible than a protein shake, there are also plenty of things that you get from animals' meat that I doubt are truly replaceable with today's limited knowledge. I already have to pay close attention to what I eat and cannot indulge too much in some things, I'm not really keen on making my food experience completely miserable; I wish I could because it would be much cheaper/easier this way. But I think people presenting meat as a pleasure are ideologically motivated. I dont think killing/eating animals is something humans ever did for "pleasure", it was done out of necessity and not much else. I was never a big meat eater, particularly in my youth I was very addicted to sugar and would rather avoid eating meat as much as possible. It contributed to a small frame/build. Now that I'm older and training hard I eat meat not because I like it that much but because I have to. If you ask me, I would be stoked if I could survive just on chips, candy, nuts, or even just flavored pasta. Those things I can eat unlimited amount with no problem at all. Turns out it's not really what's needed...

cj 1y ago

I dunno. I track macros religiously with daily protein/fat/carb targets for weight lifting. I don't care much about the macros of each individual meal (or any individual ingredient). When dinner comes around, I'm cooking whatever meal will let me hit my targets for the day. If I already got most my protein in, I'll happily eat something with "bad" protein/calorie ratio. Granted, 99% of people don't track food intake, so yea, probably makes sense to optimize food nutrition for the average person eating an average meal looking for an average balance of macros on a per-meal basis. I guess my point is there's a time and place for virtually all foods (including junk food... bodybuilders regularly snack on things like sour patch kids during workouts). Critiquing beyond burgers for their macro breakdown doesn't make sense to me. But criticisms around the level of processing is 100% valid IMO. The last package I opened up quite literally smelled like dog food. Edit: Also FWIW, I'm a vegetarian (although eat meat maybe once every 1-2 weeks, sometimes beef). Despite that, I'm easily able to get 200+ grams of protein a day. If I took protein powder out of my diet completely, I'd still be able to hit 150g/day at least without really trying.

proee 1y ago
You are not a vegetarian
- cj 1y ago
  If you wear vegetarianism on your sleeve for philosophical reasons, yea that’s not me. I simply prefer not eating a lot of meat. Next time I’ll say majority-vegetarian minority-carnivore?
  - vlod 1y ago
    I hate the term, but I've heard 'flexitarian' used to describe this.
Saline9515 1y ago
Out of curiosity, how do you get 150g/day of full proteins? For instance, eating lentils, which is one of the most proteinated vegetable, bring 18g of proteins per 100g, along with 40g of carbs. You also have to eat a comparable amount of cereal to get a full protein chain. Given that amount of proteins you mention, this requires eating a very large volume of food (cereals and graminacae swell with water during cooking). I always wondered how vegetarians could reach a highly proteinic diet as a result!

aziaziazi 1y ago

Did you try Tempeh? 20gr of protein / 150cal. It looks like a steak. It's god's food: high prots, fibers, iron, vitamins, unsaturated fats. Low carbs and sodium. Super digestive. Super versatile: from burgers to bolognese to barbecue to everything, even sweety for the courageous. My easy goto is a dip of whatever open sauce I already have and 1 min micro wave heating. A bit more time ? Fried on the pan with soy sauce, olive oil and some herbs afterwards.

anon84873628 1y ago
The parent said "vegetarian meats" so I hope we can assume that's not meant to include tempeh and tofu (but rather things like TVP or mycoprotein products). And while we're on the subject, Mike Israetel from Renaissance Periodization gives soy protein high marks for body builders. Good macros, good price, and highest amino acid profile score after milk/meat/eggs. Having tofu on hand is definitely helpful during a bulk.
- unlikelytomato 1y ago
  if only soy and beans didn't rip my digestion to shreds.
  - aziaziazi 1y ago
    Tempeh is easier to digest: the soy (fibers and amino acids) is pre-eaten by the mold. I can drink milk but feel the same as you do with beans. When it’s fermented cheese I’m totally fine. Can you eat falafels, tofu or slip peas? If so the hull may be the cause. Also beans trigger gaz on many people because they don’t eat much insoluble fibers, but after a while of regular consumption it comes back to normal. Don’t hurt yourself through, take care.
    - unlikelytomato 1y ago
      I can eat maybe one serving every few days regardless of the source. I can eat a lot of various fruits without issue(high fiber too). tofu is mostly ok. I have tried about once a year for 15-20 years. I can eat a block of cheese a day and feel great. same with extremely lean chicken. When I try plants only without the problem foods, my energy and recover drops. I get depressed and I have huge protein cravings. If I try to squash that hunger with fats or carbs, I get fat. Just never been able to find a sustainable solution for my body