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Marathon fusion claims to invent alchemy, making 5000 kgs gold per gigawatt
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- cheaprentalyeti 1y agoOK, I looked at their web site and couldn't find how they were supposed to be reaching fusion. Can anyone here point me in the right direction?
- floxy 1y agoFrom the paper: >Using neutronics simulations, we demonstrate a tokamak with a blanket configuration that can produce 197Au at a rate of about 2 t/GWth/yr.
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y agoThe first link on their site is alchemy.pdf behind announced a solution. Maybe read that? (40 pages) Or not, because here is the abstract ;) Abstract A scalable approach for chrysopoeia—the transmutation of base metals into gold—has been pursued for millennia. While there have been small-scale demon- strations in particle accelerators and proposals involving thermal neutron capture, no economically attractive approach has yet been identified. We show a new scalable method to synthesize stable gold (197Au) from the abundant mer- cury isotope 198Hg using (n, 2n) reactions in a specialized neutron multiplier layer of a fusion blanket. Reactions are driven by fast 14 MeV neutrons provided by a deuterium-tritium fusion plasma, which are uniquely capable of enabling the desired reaction pathway at scale. Crucially, the scheme identified here does not negatively impact electricity production, and is also compatible with the challenging tritium breeding requirements of fusion power plant design because (n, 2n) reactions of 198Hg drive both transmutation and neutron multiplication. Using neutronics simulations, we demonstrate a tokamak with a blanket configu- ration that can produce 197Au at a rate of about 2 t/GWth/yr. Implementation of this concept allows fusion power plants to double the revenue generated by the system, dramatically enhancing the economic viability of fusion energy.
- skywhopper 1y ago[flagged]
- modeless 1y agoUnfortunately gold generated in this way would be radioactive. They calculate they would have to store the gold for over 13 years to not require labeling as radioactive waste, or over 17 years to reach the level of radioactivity of a banana. I bet it would still be less valuable than regular gold even after that. It could still be identified, and people would discriminate against it. People are funny about nuclear waste, and likely wouldn't accept arguments like "it's perfectly safe" and "it's less radioactive than a banana".
- shutupnerd0000 1y agoImagine a whiskey manufacturer saying "this is impossible because we'll have to age it for 13 years" lel
- modeless 1y agoImagine a whiskey manufacturer saying "our whiskey is radioactive but it's ok because it will be less radioactive by the time you drink it!"
- readthenotes1 1y agoSkoal!
- dr_dshiv 1y ago“Our whiskey is carcinogenic but it’s ok because…” Said every whiskey manufacturer ever.
- Ekaros 1y agoWell for gold that will be placed in some vault dig deep into the ground that doesn't seem too bad trade off..
- Waterluvian 1y agoThat seems like so little time it’s just a slight detail to iron out. I also doubt it would be worth much less. I suspect most gold physically sits idle for longer periods of time while changing ownership often.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago> previously a […] PhD candidate in Plasma Physics at Princeton University The advice is generally not to advertise yourself as having been a PhD candidate: you're basically advertising that you couldn't complete a PhD. (Insert obligatory caveats about academia having problems, and failure to complete a PhD not implying that somebody is incapable.)
- HPsquared 1y ago"Didn't" is not the same as "couldn't". Priorities change, and completing a PhD is a massive time commitment.
- crinkly 1y agoAs a former PhD candidate, yes that. Honestly in my case I discovered I like being paid actual money and despise academic politics. Got a job offer so I phoned in sick on a catch up with my adviser and never went back. No one even checked on me for 6 weeks (!)
- ip26 1y agoGiven he left Princeton early and is now supposedly synthesizing gold merely two years later, the narrative seems in his favor.
- floxy 1y ago>allegedly synthesizing gold in large volumes Are they alleging they are currently synthesizing gold? Seems like they are saying, if you do X, Y, and Z with a fusion reactor at some time in the future, you will also get gold as a byproduct.
- greesil 1y agoWell, he did pass his qualifiers so I guess that means something.
- LinguaBrowse 1y agoDuring my research internship, I met many PhD students whose labs simply ran out of funding. In some cases, they'd ended up having to scrap their PhD as the topic was too specialist to do anywhere else (e.g. requires a high level of biocontainment) and nobody wanted to fund it. I think if you got three years into a PhD and were faced with the prospect of starting it all over again in another lab, it wouldn't take much to convince you to throw in the towel and do something else instead.
- anigbrowl 1y agoSilver stackers win again /s
- OutOfHere 1y agoSilver would be obly slightly more difficult to synthesize. Rhodium and iridium would be a lot more difficult.
- OutOfHere 1y agoAfter some studying, there is absolutely no stable element cannot be synthesized using the neutron supply of a fusion reactor. Silver is relatively easy to synthesize from cadmium. This leaves us with certain cryptocurrencies.
- anigbrowl 1y agoThat's the joke ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- oh_my_goodness 1y agoEven if this were true, at 0.15 USD/kWh it would cost more than just buying the gold. Even excluding cost of cleaning up the radioactivity, the equipment, labor, everything except the power. A GW-year is 8760 GWh. That's 8760/5000 = 1.75 GWh per kg of gold. At 0.15 USD/kWh, a GWh costs $150k US. So 1.75GWh costs about $263k. A kg of gold costs about 100k US.
- modeless 1y agoThe gold is a byproduct of generating the electricity. You still get to sell the electricity too.
- oh_my_goodness 1y agoWait, really?
- one-note 1y ago> Using our approach, power plants can generate five thousand kilograms of gold per year, per gigawatt of electricity generation (~2.5 GWth), without any compromise to fuel self-sufficiency or power output.
- snickerdoodle12 1y agoThird paragraph from the post, in bold: > Using our approach, power plants can generate five thousand kilograms of gold per year, per gigawatt of electricity generation (~2.5 GWth), without any compromise to fuel self-sufficiency or power output.
- floxy 1y agoYes, that is their selling point https://www.marathonfusion.com/alchemy.pdf https://www.marathonfusion.com/alchemy.pdf
- dwattttt 1y agoGold is atomically heavier than iron, fusing gold costs energy. The language in the article is ambiguous, but I believe the energy quoted is a cost.
- dr_dshiv 1y agoFuck, yes, this is the future I want. Great job guys, keep at it! Also—I appreciate the alchemical aspects. A nice aesthetic for a future vision.
- leereeves 1y agoTo be clear, this is something that would be wrapped around a fusion power plant (capturing neutrons produced by fusion), not a viable fusion plant itself nor a way to generate gold from just any power plant, right?
- semicolon_storm 1y agoIt requires mercury-198 as an input. The only quote I could find for mercury-198 is about $15K per milligram. So now we just need to figure out how to make mercury-198 cheaply.
- oh_my_goodness 1y agoThat's even better! We can turn gold into mercury-198 and sell that. Gold is dirt cheap at $0.11 per mg. We're rich!
- floxy 1y agoThere are 7 stable isotopes of mercury, and mercury-198 makes up ~10% of naturally occurring mercury. The paper covers a lot of ground here, see section 5.2.2 "Mercury Isotope Separation", where they are shooting for $2.4/kg.
- philipkglass 1y agoIt's the second lightest natural isotope of mercury, comprising about 10% of natural mercury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_mercury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_mercury Since mercury forms vapor so easily, it should be easily enriched in gas centrifuges like uranium (more easily, actually, since the starting isotopic abundance is higher and the chemistry is simpler). The high price of purified mercury-198 at present is probably due to it being a scientific curiosity with no industrial demand.
- RA2lover 1y agoIt's 10% of natural mercury. you're looking into separating it cheaply instead, or at least hope the other naturally occuring isotopes don't cause too many problems.
- BoiledCabbage 1y agoIf it's that easy to separate from natural mercury then it seems like they could make a fortune just separating it and selling the separated mercury. Something isn't adding up
- paxys 1y agoTl;dr - they wrote a paper
- bravesoul2 1y agoI dont trust a site that simultaneously says "we are performing a once in a century technical feat" and "we can only say great things about this like we are selling something and not mention potential pitfalls".
- impish9208 1y agoIsaac Newton must be spinning in his grave.
- readthenotes1 1y ago"I knew mercury was involved. Just knew it!" https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/newtons-recipe-for-alchemists-mercury-rediscovered/9571.article https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/newtons-recipe-for-alche...
- impish9208 1y ago*Quicksilver
- ricksunny 1y agoGood lord, chemistryworld. >"Historians now know that this was a pseudonym invented by the Harvard-educated chemist George Starkey, one of the US’s first published scientists. Starkey moved to England in 1650,..."
- dr_dshiv 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Starkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Starkey Man is amazing. Bummer about the plague.
- chaboud 1y agoActual industrial/product use of gold is less than 10%. A massive amount of gold is used for store of wealth. If gold became less scarce, it would be less expensive. The Washington monument capstone is aluminum because aluminum was expensive in 1884. Now we make beverage containers out of aluminum. (note: I have no intention of using gold for beverage containers... I like my skin not blue)
- josephcsible 1y ago> I like my skin not blue Isn't that problem just with silver, not gold?
- MereInterest 1y ago> (note: I have no intention of using gold for beverage containers... I like my skin not blue) I thought gold was biologically inert. Any chance you’re thinking of argyria, which is caused by exposure to elemental silver?
- chaboud 1y agoGold salts (e.g., old arthritis treatment) can lead to gold poisoning, but I was really just making a joke. If you have a gold chalice in your cupboard, I think you’ll be alright.
- ndsipa_pomu 1y agoAs others have posted, you're confusing gold with silver which can turn your skin blue (consuming lots of colloidal silver seems to be the main culprit). Or at least I hope so as I've got a gold (plated?) AeroPress metal filter which works great although I've not noticed any metallic taste from other metal filters.
- ChuckMcM 1y agoEDIT Note: Sharp eyed commentators pointed out I misread the table, which makes the economics better. I had originally 3% but updated it to 10% Hmmm, mercury-198 is 10%[1] of mercury, of which in 2022, China was the top supplier at 2000 tonnes[2], so 200 tonnes of that is the "good stuff". Not a lot of easy access to open data on Mercury spot prices, this source[3] has it at $2000 per flask which is 76 lbs or 34.5 kg. Using our 10% number that's 7.6lbs per flask. Which if you convert that into 7.6lbs of gold you can sell it for a bit over $300K. So not too bad. Presumably a lot of currently shut down mercury mines might start up again, but you're adding 9 tonnes of mercury 'waste' to get your 1 ton of Hg-198. The cost of disposing that might be challenging. If you could sell it back at the current spot price for mercury by flask it would be great, but with all the extra supply I think the price might go down? Which kind of helps your economics until someone only puts mercury on the market that they have already removed the HG-198 from. Being vertically integrated with your own mercury mines and reserves would be good here. The thing I don't get is why fusion? I mean you can get fast neutrons out of fission too, what sort of gamma flux do you need to generate Hg-197? Can the LHC do this trick? I mean seriously can you put a beaker of mercury in the beam path and transmute 3% of it to gold? Seems like a way to get budget for more experiments right? [1] https://chemlin.org/isotope/mercury-198 https://chemlin.org/isotope/mercury-198 [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mercury-production-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mercury-p... [3] https://www.metalary.com/mercury-price/ https://www.metalary.com/mercury-price/
- floxy 1y agoYour source [1] is claiming 10.04% +/-0.003% for Mercury-198 abundance.
- ChuckMcM 1y agoWell that certainly helps the economics.
- philipkglass 1y agoI think you read that table a little quickly. Mercury-198 is 10% of natural mercury. According to the paper, you need neutrons of at least 9 MeV to drive the transmutation. Fission reactions don't generate neutrons with energies that high. A proton accelerator can generate high energy neutrons by spallation, but in smaller numbers. It wouldn't be economically viable to do this with accelerator generated neutrons. The paper shows that neutrons from deuterium-tritium fusion are energetic enough (14.1 MeV) to drive the transmutation reaction, and they're a natural byproduct of a D-T fusion reactor, and adding this extra gold generating step shouldn't compromise the ordinary fuel breeding and power generating operations of a commercial fusion reactor. So now all they need is a commercial fusion reactor. I say that with tongue firmly in cheek, but also impressed that working fusion reactors (if they ever arrive) can also upend the current gold market.
- JSR_FDED 1y agoIf about 4 million KG of gold is normally produced a year, then this newly available gold will quickly drive down prices, leaving only Bitcoin as a store of value. Talk about unintended consequences…
- OutOfHere 1y agoRhodium and iridium can become very valuable, more than they are now, if they're relatively impractical to produce cheaply using fusion.
- OutOfHere 1y agoTo update, yes, only Bitcoin and Litecoin remain. Monero has some tail emissions, although they safeguard the network, so it's still good. The point is that there is absolutely no stable element that cannot be synthesized using the neutron output of a fusion reactor.
- ricksunny 1y ago[Waits for people to realize that breeding at scale with neutrons has been done since the early 1940s, and then to go on to wonder whether the AEC / DoE (& their contractors) ever found an 'alternate funding source' over the intervening decades...]
- b_e_n_s 1y agoThis blog post goes into considerable detail evaluating their preprint: https://thebsdetector.substack.com/p/government-funded-alchemy https://thebsdetector.substack.com/p/government-funded-alche... The authors have institutional credibility, as well as a lot of ARPA-E and private funding. Additionally, their approach mostly builds on prior work in a manner that suggests the proposed mechanism is quite plausible, although at an extremely low TRL as you can imagine. The economics do seem to check out, provided that (1) fusion energy achieves an economic net positive, (2) the engineering considerations required for this approach don't make the design of the whole plant implausible due to the narrow windows for tritium sustainability anyway, and (3) there aren't some fundamental physics issues that arise making the whole pathway impractical (such as simulations for the (n,2n) cross-section for mercury being too optimistic).
- fogof 1y agoThe title of this post seems wrong: seems they are claiming five thousand kilograms of gold per year in a Gigawatt scale plant. > power plants can generate five thousand kilograms of gold per year, per gigawatt of electricity generation
- feraldidactic 1y agoHow very Goldfinger. "No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die!"
- zeristor 1y agoWon’t the price of gold decrease. This can just scale, if the price of gold is factored into the economics of the process, then the price of gold would bottom out at the price of this process. Besides I was hoping mining asteroids funded by gold, avoiding busting the market would encourage space industry.