4 ms·

I have an opposing viewpoint here. Incompressible to me how normalised copyright theft has become in the commercial emulation space. There are huge YouTube cha

I have an opposing viewpoint here. Incompressible to me how normalised copyright theft has become in the commercial emulation space. There are huge YouTube channels such as Linus Tech Tips reviewing $100 devices that contain copyrighted games that would have retailed for over a million dollars. This is not normal and is very different from an individual downloading some ROMs. And to clarify the story, this guy is being investigated because it was suspected he was selling these devices, not just reviewing them.

colechristensen 1y ago
The copyright on games and software should really expire after maybe 20 years. Sure, everyone should know that this is technically illegal, but not following these laws isn't "incomprehensible".
- forinti 1y ago
  They should be freed as soon as they aren't being sold by the creator.
- ziml77 1y ago
  Need to do this to music too. Otherwise you'll end up in a situation where the game still can't be distributed in its original state because the music that's used is still under copyright. Even when the original developers of a game re-release it, sometimes they have to change the soundtrack if they used licensed music because acquiring a new license may be too expensive or just entirely disallowed.
Aurornis 1y ago
> And to clarify the story, this guy is being investigated because it was suspected he was selling these devices, not just reviewing them. Do you have another source for that? I don’t see it in the article. It says the exact charges aren’t known due to the way their legal system works.
- yorwba 1y ago
  It says that the legal basis for the investigation is article 171 ter of the Italian Copyright Law, which lists a lot of things that boil down to selling what you have no right to sell. https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/477668 https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/477668 The one part that is different is "c) promotes and organizes the unlawful activities under paragraph 1" which might also apply to a reviewer who does not directly sell things. But it's not just "promotes or organizes" either, so I think they'd want indications of quite substantial involvement before launching an investigation.
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    The article mentions promotion. It also says he turned off affiliate links. They seized 30 consoles of different types, which is not consistent with someone selling a lot of one.
_fat_santa 1y ago
It's not incomprehensible, it's actually quite understandable. Being able to play a full catalog of retro games these days is just not possible without piracy and emulation. Sure some games are still available like with what Nintendo is doing with NES games or MSFT is doing with original Xbox games. But go outside of that narrow catalog and finding the other games legally is impossible outside of going into retro game stores and hoping they have a copy. I'll use the Need for Speed franchise here as an example. You point blank cannot find legit ways of playing the original underground games, they aren't sold in stores, and not sold via any digital avenue. I would have loved to pay for both underground games but I was forced to pirate them since there was literally no other option.
- brookst 1y ago
  Using “forced” in the passive voice is telling here. Wouldn’t it show more agency to say you chose to pirate them because your desire to play them outweighed your estimate of the moral / legal downsides?
  - emptyfile 1y ago
    What are the moral downsides of pirating a game you can't buy anywhere?
    - os2warpman 1y ago
      People have the right to be greedy capricious dickheads with the property (physical, intellectual, and real) that they own and you are infringing on that right. Like, they can write the best and most entertaining video game of all time, one that makes you pass out if not almost die from joy, and they have the right to sell only a single copy for $10 quadrillion and sue the shit out of anyone who plays it without their permission. And there is no right, or need, to play a video game as far as I'm aware.
      - stale2002 1y ago
        None of what you described is a moral downside. Yes, people already admit that it is illegal to engage in copyright infringement regarding stuff that it is impossible to buy in the first place. That has little to do with the fact that it does not contain any moral downsides to doing that.
wodenokoto 1y ago
Which ones sell with games?
- bluescrn 1y ago
  Many AliExpress sellers are offering the devices bundled with a pre-loaded microSD card.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
immibis 1y ago
> copyrighted games that would have retailed for over a million dollars this is, sorry, ....what? In which universe do people spend a million dollars for a collection of video games? At retail?
- cubefox 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - cubefox 1y ago
    [flagged]
abdulhaq 1y ago
Here in HN it's accepted practice to copy copyrighted newspaper articles
bluescrn 1y ago
> This is not normal and is very different from an individual downloading some ROMs. Just go to archive.org and type something like 'romset' in the search box to see what 'normal' looks like these days, for better or for worse.
throwawayffffas 1y ago
Even if he was not selling them, reviewing can be construed as promoting which is illegal in Italy.
- Ylpertnodi 1y ago
  Perhaps he should have put/ said a disclaimer on each video.."This reviews is not intended to promote....". That would put him on an an equal footing with any geologists that couldn't predict an earthquake. Oh, wait...
ta8645 1y ago
For most of human history, it has been completely normal. It was fine to make your own cave painting look exactly like the one you saw on a visit to a neighbouring cave. It wasn't til the early 1700 that there was any formal idea of copyright, and almost 1900 before it became pervasive. Even today, nobody gets their panties in a knot if you sell a copy of the Mona Lisa. Everyone accepts that the copyright has long expired. In other situations (as in retro games) the only question is how long, and under what circumstances, copyright should persist. Reasonable people can disagree. Making it a moral issue is a bit tiring.
tartoran 1y ago
There is also another market for these games with platforms like Pico-8 and Tic-80 where games are open source and one can simply pull the curtain, read the code and learn how the saussage is made. Many of these modern retro games are way more fun than most of the older copyrighted content and the community is thriving too.
93po 1y ago
copyright theft? they're stealing copyrights? i can do this without the snark: it's infringement, it's not theft, and changing the word to theft doesn't strengthen your argument at all. copyright inherently immoral in my opinion, and even outside my extreme opinion, it's current implementation in the US objectively doesn't align with what most people would call "good". i doesn't make sense to respect the draconian copyright laws to the extent of not distributing 40 year old video games, that are easily obtained after 5 seconds of online searching, and whose theoretical potential purchase has zero impact on the actual working class people and families that originally made them. you are, at best, allowing Nintendo to maybe make a few bucks, if Nintendo even had the option to still buy these games in any way (they usually dont, i think)

colechristensen 1y ago

The copyright on games and software should really expire after maybe 20 years. Sure, everyone should know that this is technically illegal, but not following these laws isn't "incomprehensible".

forinti 1y ago
They should be freed as soon as they aren't being sold by the creator.
ziml77 1y ago
Need to do this to music too. Otherwise you'll end up in a situation where the game still can't be distributed in its original state because the music that's used is still under copyright. Even when the original developers of a game re-release it, sometimes they have to change the soundtrack if they used licensed music because acquiring a new license may be too expensive or just entirely disallowed.

Aurornis 1y ago

> And to clarify the story, this guy is being investigated because it was suspected he was selling these devices, not just reviewing them. Do you have another source for that? I don’t see it in the article. It says the exact charges aren’t known due to the way their legal system works.

yorwba 1y ago
It says that the legal basis for the investigation is article 171 ter of the Italian Copyright Law, which lists a lot of things that boil down to selling what you have no right to sell. https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/477668 https://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text/477668 The one part that is different is "c) promotes and organizes the unlawful activities under paragraph 1" which might also apply to a reviewer who does not directly sell things. But it's not just "promotes or organizes" either, so I think they'd want indications of quite substantial involvement before launching an investigation.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  The article mentions promotion. It also says he turned off affiliate links. They seized 30 consoles of different types, which is not consistent with someone selling a lot of one.

_fat_santa 1y ago

It's not incomprehensible, it's actually quite understandable. Being able to play a full catalog of retro games these days is just not possible without piracy and emulation. Sure some games are still available like with what Nintendo is doing with NES games or MSFT is doing with original Xbox games. But go outside of that narrow catalog and finding the other games legally is impossible outside of going into retro game stores and hoping they have a copy. I'll use the Need for Speed franchise here as an example. You point blank cannot find legit ways of playing the original underground games, they aren't sold in stores, and not sold via any digital avenue. I would have loved to pay for both underground games but I was forced to pirate them since there was literally no other option.

brookst 1y ago
Using “forced” in the passive voice is telling here. Wouldn’t it show more agency to say you chose to pirate them because your desire to play them outweighed your estimate of the moral / legal downsides?
- emptyfile 1y ago
  What are the moral downsides of pirating a game you can't buy anywhere?
  - os2warpman 1y ago
    People have the right to be greedy capricious dickheads with the property (physical, intellectual, and real) that they own and you are infringing on that right. Like, they can write the best and most entertaining video game of all time, one that makes you pass out if not almost die from joy, and they have the right to sell only a single copy for $10 quadrillion and sue the shit out of anyone who plays it without their permission. And there is no right, or need, to play a video game as far as I'm aware.
    - stale2002 1y ago
      None of what you described is a moral downside. Yes, people already admit that it is illegal to engage in copyright infringement regarding stuff that it is impossible to buy in the first place. That has little to do with the fact that it does not contain any moral downsides to doing that.

wodenokoto 1y ago

Which ones sell with games?

bluescrn 1y ago
Many AliExpress sellers are offering the devices bundled with a pre-loaded microSD card.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

immibis 1y ago

> copyrighted games that would have retailed for over a million dollars this is, sorry, ....what? In which universe do people spend a million dollars for a collection of video games? At retail?

cubefox 1y ago
[flagged]
- cubefox 1y ago
  [flagged]

abdulhaq 1y ago

Here in HN it's accepted practice to copy copyrighted newspaper articles

bluescrn 1y ago

> This is not normal and is very different from an individual downloading some ROMs. Just go to archive.org and type something like 'romset' in the search box to see what 'normal' looks like these days, for better or for worse.

throwawayffffas 1y ago

Even if he was not selling them, reviewing can be construed as promoting which is illegal in Italy.

Ylpertnodi 1y ago
Perhaps he should have put/ said a disclaimer on each video.."This reviews is not intended to promote....". That would put him on an an equal footing with any geologists that couldn't predict an earthquake. Oh, wait...

ta8645 1y ago

For most of human history, it has been completely normal. It was fine to make your own cave painting look exactly like the one you saw on a visit to a neighbouring cave. It wasn't til the early 1700 that there was any formal idea of copyright, and almost 1900 before it became pervasive. Even today, nobody gets their panties in a knot if you sell a copy of the Mona Lisa. Everyone accepts that the copyright has long expired. In other situations (as in retro games) the only question is how long, and under what circumstances, copyright should persist. Reasonable people can disagree. Making it a moral issue is a bit tiring.

tartoran 1y ago

There is also another market for these games with platforms like Pico-8 and Tic-80 where games are open source and one can simply pull the curtain, read the code and learn how the saussage is made. Many of these modern retro games are way more fun than most of the older copyrighted content and the community is thriving too.

93po 1y ago

copyright theft? they're stealing copyrights? i can do this without the snark: it's infringement, it's not theft, and changing the word to theft doesn't strengthen your argument at all. copyright inherently immoral in my opinion, and even outside my extreme opinion, it's current implementation in the US objectively doesn't align with what most people would call "good". i doesn't make sense to respect the draconian copyright laws to the extent of not distributing 40 year old video games, that are easily obtained after 5 seconds of online searching, and whose theoretical potential purchase has zero impact on the actual working class people and families that originally made them. you are, at best, allowing Nintendo to maybe make a few bucks, if Nintendo even had the option to still buy these games in any way (they usually dont, i think)