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Meanwhile China is building it's own giant telescopes: https://www.science.org/content/article/china-quietly-preparing-build-gigantic-telescope https://www.scie

• cultofmetatron 1y ago
  > Deeply embarrassing as a US citizen. agreed. America's attitude towards china has been absurd. instead of seeing it as an opportunity for us to step up, we deflect responsibility as if america was forced to offshore its manufacturing and venerate idiots over scientists.
  • Teever 1y ago
    I think a big part of it is that the admission that offshoring was a bad idea that has created a threat to American hegemony would require acknowledgement that neoliberalism has been an abject failure and a ruse by the upper class to suck up capital and political power from the middle class. That sort of discussion and the consequences from having it just isn't on the menu. There isn't going to be a massive wealth redistribution in the other direction to offset the redistribution that has taken place over the last 40 years. There isn't going to be taxation reforms to prevent this from occuring again. There isn't going to be a focus on white collar crimes from the Justice department. Things are just going to slowly get worse and worse in America. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sLSveRGmpIE&pp=0gcJCfwAo7VqN5tD https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sLSveRGmpIE&pp=0gcJCfwAo7VqN5t...
    • privatelypublic 1y ago
      Well, a peaceful one anyway. As much as it sickens me. We don't have to go back more than 200 years to see what happens when the wealth gap gets too large. Is this comment a bit reductionist? Sure. Doesn't mean its more wrong than right.
    • philwelch 1y ago
      What are you talking about? The current president was elected on the platform that offshoring was a bad idea that has created a threat to American hegemony. Free trade is politically dead now.
      • AlecSchueler 1y ago
        Meanwhile he's enacting policies to further entrench the issue.
      • Teever 1y ago
        The current president has payed lip service to reshoring and revitalizing domestic industry but what have the results been? There's been no significant antitrust actions or a focus on white-collar crimes. These are critical in stopping bad actors in American society from accruing more resources and power. There's been no real investment in education or industrial capacity that would enable the US begin to compete with China in green technology and manufacturing automation. There's no cohesive and consistent plan to encourage domestic manufacturing, it's just these nonsensical on again, off again tariff announcements that absolutely destroy the ability for anyone in industry to make long-term plans. Talk is cheap. What's needed is a systemic, sustained effort and we’re not seeing it in America.
        • philwelch 1y ago
          I’m not pleased with Trump’s trade policies either but your central claim was that nobody is willing to address the issue at all, and that’s simply not true. You, me, and Trump all probably mutually disagree with each other’s preferred solutions, but we aren’t in denial about the problem itself. It is one of the most widely discussed economic and national security issues we have if not the most.
          • Teever 1y ago
            It was not my intent to have a conversation about whether or not someone can believe Donald Trump and whether or not his rhetoric matches his intentions. That conversation is played out and not productive. You simply can't and it simply doesn't. I am not optimistic that the systemic solutions to the problems that I'm talking about are going to come from anyone in American politics and it is obvious to me that American hegemony is waning with little hope of it returning. I worry about what this means for the future of democracy if a country run by an autocrat becomes the dominant power.
• echelon 1y ago
  Can this be expressed on a graph? Can we see expenditures, big equipment contributions, Nobel prizes, etc. on a graph?
  • itishappy 1y ago
    Expenditures: https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20246/cross-national-comparisons-of-r-d-performance https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20246/cross-national-compariso...
    • echelon 1y ago
      Practically neck and neck! Wow. I bet the graph of this over time would present a powerful story.
      • itishappy 1y ago
        I updated the link, scroll down!
        • echelon 1y ago
          Thank you for sharing this! This is a really interesting story. It's not the US pulling back so much as it is China's rapid and incredible growth. According to this graph, the only period of US scientific expenditure stagnation was during the 2008 housing crisis. Our expenditures over the last decade have been increasing at a pretty good growth rate too. The data points for the forthcoming years will be interesting (sad) to see after all of these cuts.
    • potamic 1y ago
      Is there a glitch in sorting? Why is EU at #2?
• readthenotes1 1y ago
  "Deeply embarrassing as a US citizen." Agreed. The US has squandered so much money over the decades that they're now over $300k/taxpayer in debt, with interest to that that being the fourth largest cost, and two of the top three being insufficiently funded programs that simply steal from the grandchildren. It would be even more embarrassing if we didn't cut back on non-essential spending. U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time https://share.google/adgsGnl43Yk8S0zDq https://share.google/adgsGnl43Yk8S0zDq
  • apical_dendrite 1y ago
    Yeah, let's cut back on the relatively small investments in science that actually grow the economy, particularly at a moment in time when our geopolitical competitors are making enormous investments, and when leadership and talent in science is more important than ever. Just walk around the Boston area and look at how much of the economy is driven by federal research funding attracting global talent to universities, which then generates ideas and the next generation of talent, which feeds the biotech companies, which grow the economy. Letting all of that happen in China instead of the US just to make a tiny dent in the deficit (and to punish progressive institutions and prevent cultural change from immigration) is unbelievably fucking stupid.
  • Gud 1y ago
    Being at the forefront of science is not ~non-essential~. It is literally one of the most important things to make a nation great.
    • philipallstar 1y ago
      This retroactive stuff is pointless. The US can't do anything right, but if it stops doing anything it's doing it's a catastrophe.
  • ujkhsjkdhf234 1y ago
    Trump just added 4 trillion more in debt funding tax cuts for billionaire. The amount of money science research gets in the US is pennies compared to that. Investments in science always returns on investment in the form of technology. The internet was a research project mind you.
• 47282847 1y ago
  I wish we could operate on the principle of data sharing in science. What a waste of resources to needlessly replicate and compete. Also, great, somebody else is doing it so we don’t have to! Less work for us.
  • mosesbp 1y ago
    This is already how astronomy, and specifically cosmology, research works in the US (and most other places). Data is made public within a short period of obtaining it on a schedule (usually less than a couple years) that is set before data is taken. It is far from clear that the Chinese government supports this type of open data sharing.
• herbst 1y ago
  You are embarrassed because other countries can do things too?
  • autoexec 1y ago
    Seems like it's more because other counties can do things we no longer can or are willing to.
• whodidntante 1y ago
  This, and many other things in the area of science, is an embarrassment. However, I feel that what is argued about, by all sides, misses the point. The US spends 2X what China does on civilian space programs, and 4X what Europe spends. We spend 2X as much on health care, 1.5X as much on education, and 2X as much on science research. Our systems are inefficient and corrupt, and that is what needs to be addressed. Arguing for or against how much money we need to spend or to cut is just the modern day circus that distracts everyone from the real problems and provides everyone on both sides with feel good excuses.
  • Arainach 1y ago
    >Our systems are inefficient and corrupt, and that is what needs to be addressed. Citation needed. Even Musk's DOGE trolls found no evidence of significant corruption/inefficiency.
    • whodidntante 1y ago
      The first few areas are easy,since budgets are known and there are actual comparative measurements that have been done. Health. We spend $5T a year on our "health", which is 2X the per capita amounts spent by western European countries, yet we have poorer outcomes. We have poorer outcomes not just among lower income classes, but also poorer outcomes when comparing upper class incomes between the US/Europe Education. We spend 1.5X per capita compared to western European nations, and we have poorer outcomes If we would simply match the budgets for these two areas with European budgets, and even accept the fact that they would have better systems in place, we would save $3T a year. This is a fairly direct measure of how much more efficient Europe is with their resources. They are either that much better/smarter than we are, or we have a corrupt system, or a combination of the two. Public construction costs. It costs 50% to 200% or even more to build public projects in the US than in Europe. That is, if we can even complete our projects. One of many reports and analysis: https://www.constructiondive.com/news/us-rail-projects-take-longer-cost-more-than-those-in-other-countries/605599/ https://www.constructiondive.com/news/us-rail-projects-take-... Other areas are difficult to have direct comparisons, and it is difficult to compare results. The US solution to everything is to pour money into it. And it seems that any cut, any type of cut at all, portends doom. Military. We spend $1T a year. We have something like 1200 military bases, over half are international. We have massive cost and time overruns all the time. Yes, we may have the best military in the world, but it certainly feels like the taxpayers are being taken advantage of. You may feel differently. I do not think we need 1200 based. I do think that the military industrial complex profits way beyond what is reasonable. Science research. We spend about $1T in R&D, almost triple of Europe. We pay our researchers 2X-3X what researchers make in Europe. Yet it seems that any type of cut to science budgets is met with the proclamation that we will lose all of our researchers to Europe. Our major research centers need a 70% incidental budget on top of their grants otherwise they will go out of business. CEO's of major non profit medical research centers need to make millions and millions of dollars per year. There is something wrong here. Space. We spend 2X what China spends, and 4X what Europe spends. One example is the costs of space telescopes: China spends 9 figures, Europe spends 10 figures, and we spend 11 figures. NASA's SLS rocket is a case study in how to literally brun up billions and billions of taxpayers money. We can, and need to do better. Corruption is not always the simple graft of the CEO and board. Corruption also comes in the form of a system where too many people make too much profit to want to make the system better.
• Yeul 1y ago
  Yeah but does China have tax cuts for the rich? Because let's be real here all the patriotism is just a facade the rich want to keep the money for themselves. Singing the national anthem on the fourth of July is cheap.
  • autobodie 1y ago
    "Nationalism is a bourgeois trick.” —Vladimir Lenin
  • elcritch 1y ago
    Yes, especially if you’re part of the CCP [1]. Well if they’re taxed at all. Can’t be taxed if you hide your wealth. At least the wealth of the richest people in the US is made by people producing value and services. Bezos is rich because people like myself find Amazon and AWS to be quite good. IMHO, the biggest wealth problem in the US is the rise of upper-middle class “elites” and management class. The one driving “mergers and acquisitions” to reduce competition between grocery stores or using rent control software to eke up rent costs. 1: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/oct/8/intelligence-communitys-report-on-wealth-and-corru/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/oct/8/intelligence...
    • wpm 1y ago
      >At least the wealth of the richest people in the US is made by people producing value and services. Citation needed. What value and service does a health insurance CEO provide?
    • kelipso 1y ago
      Quotes from the article: > Intelligence community’s report on wealth and corruption of China’s rulers is overdue > The truth is, the party is illegitimate. It is so for three reasons. First, it was formed and nurtured by the Communist International, a worldwide organization, and the Chinese Communist Party’s seizure of power in 1949 was made possible by Stalin and the Red Army. Lol, this is the most obvious propaganda article I have seen in probably years. You should be embarrassed to post this in HN.
• biohcacker84 1y ago
  On the other hand, the US is close to bankruptcy. And that's not all the current admin's fault. And their cuts are trying to avoid that, although they have thrown out many babies with the bath water. It's hard to blame them for trying to avoid default, which would be far worse than anything. The program apparently cost $900 million which is not a trivial cost.
  • Moomoomoo309 1y ago
    Yeah, except for the tax cuts for the wealthy which created more debt than all of their other cuts combined, and then some.
• lofaszvanitt 1y ago
  Why? China will do the job, instead of US...