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by Lariscus 1y ago

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throwaway63097 1y ago
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- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  If a new startup comes up, and someone points out "they've taken funding from Philip Morris / Altria", that is completely on topic, and will affect how some people evaluate the company. This is comparable.
  - throwaway63097 1y ago
    Calling someone a "reactionary nutjob" isn't really informative. You can put someome's biases on display without insults, just as other commenters have done.
    - jubalfh 1y ago
      indeed. the objective description is “a genuine german neonazi”.
- em-bee 1y ago
  You'd expect that the changes would've been reverted sooner if that was all there was to it, no? How come they're suddenly a problem? that was my first thought too. if these commits were a problem they should not have been accepted in the first place. was there no review process in place? and if there was no review, isn't that a sign that the project is dead? and if the project is dead what's with the sudden activity? none of this makes sense.
  - Tadpole9181 1y ago
    AFAICT they were reviewed, but too leniently in light of his "improve the codebase" rhetoric. His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team, which realized his work was shotty and several changes being made were outright wrong or caused new bugs. More info here: https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts
    - em-bee 1y ago
      His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team that's what's bothering me. because someone misbehaves suddenly everything this person does receives more scrutiny. it should have received that scrutiny from the beginning. as should every other PR. the behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman this reaction would be considered sexist. if the reason was that people actually reported issues and those issues would point to one persons submissions so that a track record of bad submissions builds up then it would be reasonable to wonder what else did this person do wrong. but drama and stirring is not a good reason to suddenly question someones ability as a coder.
      - Tadpole9181 1y ago
        Realistically, any significant project can't do what you want. Linus cannot review every bit of code that enters the kernel, he delegates that task to trusted people. And they may themselves delegate further. If something breaks or some external force appears, Linus may review the work of the delegates more closely than normal. And that's often when we get his most memorable rants, when he tells people he's putting trust in to stop disappointing him because they know better. > The behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman this reaction would be considered sexist. What are you even talking about? That's not what happened. Different reviewers, with higher standards for their project, who understand the code better are now looking. Their conclusion was "this code is awful and caused breaks". They aren't reviewing it any different than other code. Also, weird to bring up sexism. It is absolutely not the same to say I would refuse code from a Nazi apologist as to say I would refuse code from a woman.
        em-bee 1y ago
        > The behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. What are you even talking about? That's not what happened. you said: His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team and that's my interpretation of that. did you mean something else? if i misunderstood you then i apologize. It is absolutely not the same to say I would refuse code from a Nazi apologist as to say I would refuse code from a woman. i disagree. especially if it is code that has already been accepted. besides, that's not what's happening here. the code is not summarily rejected. it is more critically scrutinized. and doing that is absolutely the same thing as more critically scrutinizing someones code because of their gender. so the nazi excuse doesn't work.
  - queenkjuul 1y ago
    Go read the discussions on the PRs. The maintainers responsible for the merges admit their mistake in approving them. This is all out in the open if you actually care.
- jcranmer 1y ago
  The main repository's README has essentially a somewhat skeevy general undertone of "we accept all contributions from all kinds of people, but anyone who disagrees with me is clearly an evil paid corporate shill out to get me." At the time I read it, I didn't know or care who it was. Then someone mentioned that this was the guy who got Torvalds to tell him GTFO off the kernel mailing lists, and when reading the article about it, I saw the name of the individual. Just seeing that name immediately reminded me of some interactions I've personally had with him a decade ago which eventually resulted (IIRC) in him being told to GTFO of that project. And the catalyst for this fork is being told to GTFO of Xorg thanks to his interactions with the rest of the people. This is someone who is constantly grating on peoples' nerves to the point that they're kicked out of open source projects for being net negative contributors to the project. And given the repeat nature of it, they also lack the perspicacity to realize the commonality of these incidents. Now a thorough description of their behavior is perhaps superior to just calling them a "reactionary nutjob," but their reputation does proceed them and is justly earned.
throwaway984393 1y ago
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Lammy 1y ago
> Xorg proper is now reverting a lot of their changes They're returning to a previous state which they believe possessed positive characteristics absent from contemporary? Somebody should come up with a word for that.
- user982 1y ago
  They're repairing damage. What word did you have in mind?
bmacho 1y ago
The main devs, apart from being reactionary nutjobs, created enough bugs and compatibility breaks in Xorg proper by reverting a lot of X11Libre changes.[0] I guess we will see if this project survives for longer than a few months. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts
bmacho 1y ago
Can you explain how xorg developers removing a lot of their own code and calling it "bad" because they get mad at someone makes you think that xorg is professional and makes the fork look bad? I am only able to see it the opposite way, that is, xorg developers have no idea wtf are they doing. I mean them deleting their own code only proves their own incompetence not Enrico's.
- price 1y ago
  They're reverting this developer's previous changes, because those changes were bad. More on those previous changes here: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1797#note_2805680 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1797#no... Definitely some blame also belongs to the Xorg committer who reviewed and merged those changes (and it looks like that person understands that in retrospect). But the primary responsibility for getting a change right is the author's.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
soraminazuki 1y ago
> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181010.191925.ee1331b6.en.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyn... [2]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/1249 https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/1249
- throwaway63097 1y ago
  Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?
  - jcranmer 1y ago
    For the most part, yes.
  - soraminazuki 1y ago
    Did he ever renounce his own views? Because publicly spouting Nazi propaganda isn't the kind of thing he can pretend never happened by just waiting a few years. I'm all for leniency, but he needs to show that he's changed. Especially when he has said things like: - WW2 Germany was "peaceful" and that the war was "forced" upon them - Churchill and Roosevelt "should have been the first to be prosecuted in the Nuremberg trials" - The German AfD party is "(mis)labeled" by the mainstream media as Nazis
    - jcranmer 1y ago
      I'll go a step further and point out that someone who is not only willing to parrot these views but has a fairly detailed rationale for why they believe them are so devoted to those views that I'd find a disavowal of them somewhat suspicious. Fortunately, it's also pretty clear from other contextual clues that he sees no reason to disavow those beliefs.
queenkjuul 1y ago
Yeah when I first heard of XLibre i went and saw some of the comments on the maintainer's freedesktop PRs and immediately lost interest in the project. That was before i even knew they were a Nazi-defending nutcase insistent on dragging politics into LKML. Frankly hope the project dies. Wayland can't replace X for me yet but I've no confidence XLibre is an improvement on X11 in any capacity.

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throwaway63097 1y ago

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JoshTriplett 1y ago
If a new startup comes up, and someone points out "they've taken funding from Philip Morris / Altria", that is completely on topic, and will affect how some people evaluate the company. This is comparable.
- throwaway63097 1y ago
  Calling someone a "reactionary nutjob" isn't really informative. You can put someome's biases on display without insults, just as other commenters have done.
  - jubalfh 1y ago
    indeed. the objective description is “a genuine german neonazi”.
em-bee 1y ago
You'd expect that the changes would've been reverted sooner if that was all there was to it, no? How come they're suddenly a problem? that was my first thought too. if these commits were a problem they should not have been accepted in the first place. was there no review process in place? and if there was no review, isn't that a sign that the project is dead? and if the project is dead what's with the sudden activity? none of this makes sense.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  AFAICT they were reviewed, but too leniently in light of his "improve the codebase" rhetoric. His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team, which realized his work was shotty and several changes being made were outright wrong or caused new bugs. More info here: https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts
  - em-bee 1y ago
    His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team that's what's bothering me. because someone misbehaves suddenly everything this person does receives more scrutiny. it should have received that scrutiny from the beginning. as should every other PR. the behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman this reaction would be considered sexist. if the reason was that people actually reported issues and those issues would point to one persons submissions so that a track record of bad submissions builds up then it would be reasonable to wonder what else did this person do wrong. but drama and stirring is not a good reason to suddenly question someones ability as a coder.
    - Tadpole9181 1y ago
      Realistically, any significant project can't do what you want. Linus cannot review every bit of code that enters the kernel, he delegates that task to trusted people. And they may themselves delegate further. If something breaks or some external force appears, Linus may review the work of the delegates more closely than normal. And that's often when we get his most memorable rants, when he tells people he's putting trust in to stop disappointing him because they know better. > The behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman this reaction would be considered sexist. What are you even talking about? That's not what happened. Different reviewers, with higher standards for their project, who understand the code better are now looking. Their conclusion was "this code is awful and caused breaks". They aren't reviewing it any different than other code. Also, weird to bring up sexism. It is absolutely not the same to say I would refuse code from a Nazi apologist as to say I would refuse code from a woman.
      - em-bee 1y ago
        > The behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. What are you even talking about? That's not what happened. you said: His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team and that's my interpretation of that. did you mean something else? if i misunderstood you then i apologize. It is absolutely not the same to say I would refuse code from a Nazi apologist as to say I would refuse code from a woman. i disagree. especially if it is code that has already been accepted. besides, that's not what's happening here. the code is not summarily rejected. it is more critically scrutinized. and doing that is absolutely the same thing as more critically scrutinizing someones code because of their gender. so the nazi excuse doesn't work.
- queenkjuul 1y ago
  Go read the discussions on the PRs. The maintainers responsible for the merges admit their mistake in approving them. This is all out in the open if you actually care.
jcranmer 1y ago
The main repository's README has essentially a somewhat skeevy general undertone of "we accept all contributions from all kinds of people, but anyone who disagrees with me is clearly an evil paid corporate shill out to get me." At the time I read it, I didn't know or care who it was. Then someone mentioned that this was the guy who got Torvalds to tell him GTFO off the kernel mailing lists, and when reading the article about it, I saw the name of the individual. Just seeing that name immediately reminded me of some interactions I've personally had with him a decade ago which eventually resulted (IIRC) in him being told to GTFO of that project. And the catalyst for this fork is being told to GTFO of Xorg thanks to his interactions with the rest of the people. This is someone who is constantly grating on peoples' nerves to the point that they're kicked out of open source projects for being net negative contributors to the project. And given the repeat nature of it, they also lack the perspicacity to realize the commonality of these incidents. Now a thorough description of their behavior is perhaps superior to just calling them a "reactionary nutjob," but their reputation does proceed them and is justly earned.

throwaway984393 1y ago

[dead]

Lammy 1y ago

> Xorg proper is now reverting a lot of their changes They're returning to a previous state which they believe possessed positive characteristics absent from contemporary? Somebody should come up with a word for that.

user982 1y ago
They're repairing damage. What word did you have in mind?

bmacho 1y ago

The main devs, apart from being reactionary nutjobs, created enough bugs and compatibility breaks in Xorg proper by reverting a lot of X11Libre changes.[0] I guess we will see if this project survives for longer than a few months. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts

bmacho 1y ago

Can you explain how xorg developers removing a lot of their own code and calling it "bad" because they get mad at someone makes you think that xorg is professional and makes the fork look bad? I am only able to see it the opposite way, that is, xorg developers have no idea wtf are they doing. I mean them deleting their own code only proves their own incompetence not Enrico's.

price 1y ago
They're reverting this developer's previous changes, because those changes were bad. More on those previous changes here: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1797#note_2805680 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1797#no... Definitely some blame also belongs to the Xorg committer who reviewed and merged those changes (and it looks like that person understands that in retrospect). But the primary responsibility for getting a change right is the author's.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

soraminazuki 1y ago

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181010.191925.ee1331b6.en.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyn... [2]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/1249 https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/1249

throwaway63097 1y ago
Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?
- jcranmer 1y ago
  For the most part, yes.
- soraminazuki 1y ago
  Did he ever renounce his own views? Because publicly spouting Nazi propaganda isn't the kind of thing he can pretend never happened by just waiting a few years. I'm all for leniency, but he needs to show that he's changed. Especially when he has said things like: - WW2 Germany was "peaceful" and that the war was "forced" upon them - Churchill and Roosevelt "should have been the first to be prosecuted in the Nuremberg trials" - The German AfD party is "(mis)labeled" by the mainstream media as Nazis
  - jcranmer 1y ago
    I'll go a step further and point out that someone who is not only willing to parrot these views but has a fairly detailed rationale for why they believe them are so devoted to those views that I'd find a disavowal of them somewhat suspicious. Fortunately, it's also pretty clear from other contextual clues that he sees no reason to disavow those beliefs.

queenkjuul 1y ago

Yeah when I first heard of XLibre i went and saw some of the comments on the maintainer's freedesktop PRs and immediately lost interest in the project. That was before i even knew they were a Nazi-defending nutcase insistent on dragging politics into LKML. Frankly hope the project dies. Wayland can't replace X for me yet but I've no confidence XLibre is an improvement on X11 in any capacity.