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Don’t miss this bit. Currently enrolled students are going to need to find a new university. > In a news release, the Department of Homeland Security sent a st
by kochb 1y ago
Don’t miss this bit. Currently enrolled students are going to need to find a new university.
> In a news release, the Department of Homeland Security sent a stark message to Harvard’s international students: “This means Harvard can no longer enroll foreign students, and existing foreign students must transfer or lose their legal status.”
- ceejayoz 1y agoA judge has already blocked the move. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/judge-blocks-trump-revoking-international-students-legal-status-rcna208625 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/judge-blocks-tr... > A federal judge in California has blocked the Trump administration from terminating the legal statuses of international students at universities across the U.S.
- kristjansson 1y agoI believe they've taken a different tactic here - attacking Harvard's ability to enroll international students, not the students' status directly.
- ceejayoz 1y agoThe article states "existing foreign students must transfer or lose their legal status"; this injunction would appear to pause that.
- ty6853 1y agoThe semester is already over, many of them went home. They'll simply be refused when they try to come back.
- firesteelrain 1y agoIt’s hard to do an injunction if there is currently no harm.
- Animats 1y agoThat's a real issue. If you're on a student visa, and were planning on coming back in the fall, leaving the US for the summer may be a bad move. Entry to the US can be denied arbitrarily. Deporting someone is harder.
- benlivengood 1y ago> Deporting someone is harder. It used to be harder and mostly seems to be a matter of ICE finding the right door to break down now.
- NewJazz 1y agoOr the wrong one.
- xethos 1y agoThey've got a deportation order, so somebody is being put on a plane to El Salvador. Whether the name of the person being deported matches the name on the deportation order is another question, but not one ICE seems bothered by anymore
- netsharc 1y agoUndergrad Buttle better watch out...
- fullstop 1y agoYou mean Tuttle, right? ;-)
- AlecSchueler 1y agoDeporting someone is just a matter of grabbing them off the street and shipping them out to El Salvador before the courts hear anything about it.
- chairmansteve 1y agoNot only refused, they may be locked up for a couple of weeks, as has happened to various tourists.
- ty6853 1y agoSure, I was locked up by DHS/immigration, and I am a US citizen. CBP/ICE/HSI doesn't really need much of anything to lock you up, when they did it to me they told me I wasn't even under arrest.
- mandeepj 1y ago> Sure, I was locked up by DHS/immigration, and I am a US citizen. Can you expand - what happened?
- Terr_ 1y agoIANAL but there are different categories like "detained" [reasonable suspicion, for questioning] and "arrested" [probable cause], and that's why the common advice is to just ask "am I free to go", which doesn't get bogged-down on finer-grained distinctions about why you might no be.
- ty6853 1y agoYes chained ("detained") in a jail cell, but not arrested, so no right to lawyer.
- gtirloni 1y agoICE begs to differ.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- semiquaver 1y agoThis is not the same issue. Judges can be fast, but not that fast. Both the decision and this action against Harvard happened within an hour of eachother.
- dragonwriter 1y ago> This is not the same issue. It is not, but it isn't unrelated; this is about the individual actions for which Harvard's refusal to assist by proactively supplying information is the basis for the action against Harvard.
- mperham 1y agoIt doesn’t matter, the damage is done. If you’re an international student, are you going to risk an El Salvador gulag?
- thaumasiotes 1y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y agoBecause they accidentally sent at least one person there already? Who remains there, despite SCOTUS ordering his return? https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf > Instead of hastening to correct its egregious error, the Government dismissed it as an “oversight.” > The order properly requires the Government to “facilitate” Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 1y ago> International students are on the Meng Wanzhou end of things. The vast majority of them (of which there are over a million) don't have a Wikipedia page, nor are they "Deputy chairwoman and CFO" of a company as big as Huawei. Rumeysa Ozturk sat in jail for six weeks for writing an op-ed. I assure you, there are plenty of international students you can mistreat without causing a major diplomatic incident.
- dragonwriter 1y ago> They sent a Salvadoran who nobody cared about to El Salvador. They sent a lot of people, mostly not Salvadoran, to El Salvador [0] without due process, the one Salvadoran just gets covered more in the news because, as well as the issues applicable to the others, he had a existing court order prohibiting his deportation to El Salvador specifically. [0] And they've done or attempted to do that to Libya, South Sudan, and other third countries to whom the deported have no connection, as well.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- brazzy 1y agoWhat judges say doesn't matter anymore to this administration. They'll just implement it anyway.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mousethatroared 1y agoNationwide injunctions are going the way of the dodo
- paulryanrogers 1y agoWith population outgrowing our capped judiciary, making access to courts increasingly pay to play, this means even less accountability for the executive branch.
- mousethatroared 1y agoThe judiciary doesn't have to be capped. Thats on Congress
- yandie 1y agoI don't think this decision can force the Department of State to issue new visas for Havard students unfortunately. At least existing students *might* be alright...
- klipt 1y agoThe house republicans have passed a bill that in effect lets Trump override the courts: https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-hidden-provision-in-the-big-ugly https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-hidden-provision-in-t...
- fluidcruft 1y agoPresumably you mean it would if it were passed into law. The House passes all sorts of bullshit that dies in the Senate.
- klipt 1y agoHopefully it dies, but republicans do have a senate majority too.
- zappb 1y agoThey don’t have 60 senators which is required to pass anything besides the budget these days thanks to the filibuster.
- jmye 1y agoIf Republicans believe they will never lose the Senate, they can easily bypass the filibuster without 60 votes. To date, the adults in the room prevented either party from doing this for short term wins, but a) there are no adults in the room and b) it’s arguable the Senate will never again have a non-Republican majority (demographically, not a conspiracy theory).
- EGreg 1y agoI remember the same was said when GOP lost horribly in 2008 and Dems rode Obama’s coattails. The GOP was supposed to never recover. Demographically they were in a significant minority. Then they hatched REDMAP…
- 1y ago
- fnordpiglet 1y agoWhich isn’t at all how PhD programs work. This is a supreme dick move to students are going to be forced to leave with an AbD for no other reason than Trumps ego. This is going to burn the children of the most powerful families across the world. Monarchies, dictators, owners of international conglomerates, etc all send their kids to Harvard. Destroying their children’s education out of a fit of malice is going to haunt him, and America on top of all the other stuff America is doing to the world. America first is rapidly becoming America alone.
- bamboozled 1y agoMonarchies, dictators, owners of international conglomerates, etc all send their kids to Harvard When you frame it like this... it doesn't sound like such a loss. But yeah, it's not the only way to frame it.
- lobsterthief 1y agoThe percentage of Harvard international students who fall into this category is statistically insignificant. It’s not even worth framing.
- orlp 1y agoIt's not about the percentage of Harvard international students who fall into this category, it's about the percentage of students in this category who go to Harvard.
- BobaFloutist 1y agoAlso fairly low. There's plenty of high-prestige institutions in the world.
- rf15 1y agoAs someone from europe I'd say Harvard and MIT are the #1 prestige institutions, and a lot of people will not settle for less.
- goatlover 1y agoI don't get how DHS has control over what universities foreign students can attend. Either than can attend school in the US or not. Saying they have to transfer from Harvard to another American university is total abuse of power. Surely there are lawsuits in the works over this.
- GuinansEyebrows 1y agoi'd guess this kind of thing (per-institutional authorization to allow international students) was intended to provide the government a way to revoke that right from "sham" institutions (wonder if Trump University ever had international students?) or ones that otherwise were obviously trying to facilitate students skirting or abusing immigration law. not that i agree with that anyways (citizenship is stupid, borders are stupid, countries are stupid blah blah blah) but it's pretty clear we're currently dealing with a regime that's willing to use ambiguous regulations in malicious ways (no comment on previous regimes, they're all bad, don't call me a HN Democrat or whatever).
- LightHugger 1y agoChesterton's fence is way too relevant, when it comes to the "citizenship is stupid, borders are stupid, countries are stupid blah blah blah" part.
- FpUser 1y agoIt seems that the amount of fences is growing up exponentially. To the point that we are all corralled. Not so long time ago people could move from country to country relatively freely. Now it is a fucking tragedy
- corimaith 1y ago>Not so long time ago people could move from country to country relatively freely The well-off rich and upper middle-class could move from country to country relatively freely, or immigrants who intended not to look back. Which puts a strong pressure on self-selection on the type of people coming into a country. That time isn't now, with cheap airfares and the internet, it's much more easier for anyone to come in, often with no intention of integration and bringing their own sectarian politics in. When the time comes, how many of these immigrants do you think will fight for their host country? Especially if said host country make likely come into conflict with their homelands.
- kristopolous 1y agoAh yes, this is how we will be competitive - defunding universities, deporting the best and brightest, dismantling education, and cutting off trade. I mean seriously, if a malicious saboteur was running things, what would the differences be?
- 0x5f3759df-i 1y agoThey’d probably try to be more subtle about it.
- scrubs 1y agoWhence the salient and more pressing question: why does the gop in the legislative branch take a zero? We've all had bad bosses ... and that's a problem, but it's 10x worse when the people around know better and do nothing.
- paulryanrogers 1y agoThey're afraid of losing to a primary challenger if they break with Trump. It used to be a Trump endorsement would hurt your campaign. Now a Trump critique is believed to be a scarlet letter. He's got a lock on the racist zealots that make up the most consistent voting bloc in the GOP.
- QuarterReptile 1y agoThey never picked off Newhouse, IIRC.
- neumann 1y agoThey (the current administration) doesn't want to be competitive. They want to be in full control and willing to destroy any institution, organization or person that opposes them, internal or external.
- spacemadness 1y ago
- instagib 1y agoOr gain legal status another way. Marriage, business, lottery, another college, etc.
- FooBarBizBazz 1y agoWhy do students need to be inside the US in order for Harvard to issue them a degree? Surely there is an international network -- collaborators abroad who could host students, etc, etc. For example , Harvard already has an infrastructure of exchange programs. It's not ideal for the students, but I don't see why they can't continue to "be Harvard students" from anywhere. Hopefully, though, this is an "escalate to deescalate" thing, and this whole discussion will become moot.