9 ms·

Light Table reaches 0.1.0

297 points by Mariel 14y ago

shadowfiend 14y ago
It's awesome how similar some of this looks to Smalltalk IDEs, with some bonus improvements. It's true that it's high time someone picked up the baton on the concepts they pushed, and I'm pumped to see that Light Table is picking up that baton and running with it to present even more interesting possibilities.
- norswap 14y ago
  I hope you are wrong, because I find Smalltalk IDEs infuriating. Mostly I dislike the fact I have to either make 10 click to reach any code I want to see, or manage a large number of annoying windows to keep track of what I'm working on.
  - tdrgabi 14y ago
    I don't know why you're downvoted. I think you're right. There are lots of windows you have to drag around all the time and click in many places to get to some code.
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      Much like when you complain about parenthesis in Lisp, if you complain about windows in Smalltalk (or key combinations on Emacs) you are probably focusing your attention on the wrong thing. Stop fighting the environment. Let it flow around you.
      - ezy 14y ago
        I don't think this type of argument carries much weight. Just because one can get used to something, doesn't really make it a clear choice. All of these environments are good choices for many reasons. However, they aren't without major flaws. Smalltalk environments do tend to be a bear when following the code around window after window, emacs keychords are not very human friendly or composable and can give you RSI, and lisp parentheses are mainly for the convenience of the language parser, not for the programmer (contrary to the famous quote).
        neutronicus 14y ago
        The convenience for the language parser at least translates into convenience for structured editing in the case of Lisp. I always miss the convenience of modifying code with Paredit when I'm working in another language.
        nsmartt 14y ago
        Lisp quotes does have plenty of advantages for human reading, though.
        yoklov 14y ago
        While I don't disagree on your other points, lisp's parentheses aren't just for the convenience of the parser, they're also for the convenience of the programmer who uses macros. Homoiconicity is a huge boon there. Try using another language which allows macros and you'll see what I mean. For example, Haxe allows macros, and while it's syntax for them has recently improved, it still has a ways to go. Here's an example macro which checks if its argument is a constant string, and if it is, reads the file it represents. http://haxe.org/manual/macros/#manipulating-expressions http://haxe.org/manual/macros/#manipulating-expressions edit: The equivalent in clojure would be something like (defmacro get-file-contents [s] (if-not (string? s) (throw (Exception. "Expected string")) (slurp s))) Which happens to look very similar to a function that does the same thing, but at runtime instead of at compile time.
        Raphael_Amiard 14y ago
        The haxe macro reads the file at runtime. Your clojure macro reads the file at compile-time. The proper version would be : (defmacro get-file-contents [s] (if-not (string? s) (throw (Exception. "Expected string")) `(slurp ~s)))
        yoklov 14y ago
        Nope, the Haxe program reads and includes the file at compile time, but only if it's a string literal. If it's an expression that evaluates to a string (which only works if you have static typing, as Haxe does), it reads it at runtime. If its neither it fails.
      - batista 14y ago
        Only the parenthesis in Lisp have to be like that to serve a purpose (data is code is AST, homoiconicity, macros, et al). They cannot really be changed much and still have a Lisp proper. Whereas Smalltalk IDE window handling could be improved tremendously from the mid-90's designs it still carries to this day. Not the reflective/debugging/refactoring capabilities (the good parts). Just the GUI and the handling.
  - shadowfiend 14y ago
    More importantly I think than some of the other responses, as I said, Light Table is “picking up that baton and running with it to present even more interesting possibilities”. Taking strong inspiration from some features in Smalltalk IDEs is different from building a Smalltalk-style IDE for Clojure. I see inspiration here, but not straight copying per se.
  - e12e 14y ago
    I agree. One of Smalltalk's (the system) greatest assets is that it integrates fantastically with a GUI/mouse input. However, I also find that one of its biggest problems. I've pretty much stopped using the mouse for input -- due to RSI -- and I don't care much for trackballs etc. I think the next five years might vindicate Smalltalk a bit as I expect touch interfaces to keep rising -- both touch in the sense of touching with your finger(s) as well as proper "pen" input (which is much better for drawing anyway). However, for typing -- I still prefer vim -- and at least someone is toying with that idea in Pharo: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Vim-Shortcuts-for-Nautilus-Proof-of-concept-td4638987.html http://forum.world.st/ANN-Vim-Shortcuts-for-Nautilus-Proof-o...
    - jasomill 14y ago
      While your drawing comment leads me to suspect you probably already have one, it's worth pointing out that Wacom pen tablets are an excellent alternative to mice, especially for people who have difficulty using the latter (arthritis in my case), and in particular when using "mouse-heavy" IDEs, as they're particularly good for text selection. I haven't personally used a mouse on a regular basis in well over a decade. More recently, I've also found the combination of large Intuos tablet "stage right" and an Apple Magic Trackpad "stage left" for gestures and other things where precision is unnecessary to be a nice way to spread the load across both hands, though I'm not sure how well it'd work, if at all, under Windows or Linux (natively — it works great with VMware Fusion). And while it'd be a nonstarter for people who do lots of numeric input, I've also found smaller keyboards without numeric keypads can make a significant difference in ergonomics, though this is probably somewhat specific to elbow problems like my own.
      - e12e 14y ago
        Actually no -- I've only recently taken up graphical input (for post-processing/touching up photos) -- and I've yet to invest in any new hardware for that. Your comment on using one for "normal" input is very welcome -- I would've thought they'd be pretty horrible for exactly the things you say they're good at. Moves a wacom tablet higher on my list of hardware to get. Still, if I can afford it when it gets out, I'm considering getting a modbook: http://www.modbook.com/modbookpro http://www.modbook.com/modbookpro I suspect we'll see more hardware along these lines as Microsoft push out w8 and touch input becomes more viable for the mainstream (or perhaps more marketed -- hence increasing the sales/production volume and dropping the price of parts).
  - jurre 14y ago
    I felt the exact same way using the Seaside IDE, but I only used it for a day, maybe it just takes some getting used to?
airlocksoftware 14y ago
Chris, if you're around, you mentioned that you're now building Light Table in Light Table. Does this include the front end Clojurescript? Because I would love to move my Clojure / Clojurescript project over to LT if that's possible.
- ibdknox 14y ago
  It does indeed, but we punted on including CLJS in this release because we didn't have enough time to test it. It should make it into the next release though :)
  - airlocksoftware 14y ago
    Very cool. I look forward to it. I'm just poking around this release now, and it's great to see the vision you had in the original video coming together. Not to rush you or anything, but I was wondering how the plugin API was coming along. Is that something that we'll get to play with anytime soon, or will that be something that comes with the final release next year?
  - mej10 14y ago
    Isn't it going to be open sourced at some point? Why not just let people get at your dev branches or at least provide builds for them Also, keep up the awesome work!
    - t_hozumi 14y ago
      Even if OSS isn't an option, I think it would be a nice idea for Light Table to provide low level API/Interface so that eco system grow like emacs/vim/eclipse. Perhaps Chris has already considered this idea.
      - airlocksoftware 14y ago
        Yep, that should all be happening. Scroll to the FAQ section of the kickstarter - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table - it will be OSS and will also have an API for developing plugins with Javascript. He's already shown a cool benchmarking mode in one of the videos.
vecinu 14y ago
I'm not sure if Chris or any of you guys have seen this video but it is exactly what Light Table is about to become (perhaps more) and that makes me very excited. http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366
- icey 14y ago
  Here's the blog post where Chris first talked about Light Table (before it was called Light Table) http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/26/connecting-to-your-creation/ http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/26/connecting-to-your-c...
  - vecinu 14y ago
    Oh my. After re-reading that blog post I remember seeing it on HN before. My apologies.
- tree_of_item 14y ago
  Chris started work on Light Table _because_ of that video. So be excited :)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- AYBABTME 14y ago
  I was at this conference (CUSEC 2012[1]), and he (Bret) gave a truly awesome lecture. Also it was my first conference ever, so it's even better. [1] Canadian University Software Engineering Conference, in Montreal.
  - vecinu 14y ago
    I managed to make it to CUSEC 2011 but not 2012. Looks like I missed some really great presentations. It's unfortunate when this conference is in another province.
rjsamson 14y ago
I'm really impressed with how this is coming along. The UI has a great feel to it. Playing with LT Playground makes me want to go back and give Clojure another shot. Very cool!
danielweber 14y ago
Constructive criticism: pretend that someone hasn't head of Light Table before. Have a one-sentence description near the top that links to a longer description. (Clicking on "Light Table Playground" takes me a something that includes the features you are working on for Light Box.)
- ibdknox 14y ago
  done. Thanks for the suggestion! (Side note, the real thing is called "Light Table" too, no light boxes here :)
ezy 14y ago
The live evaluation is nice, but seems a little limited. If I have: (defn my-add [a b] (+ a b)) (my-add 3 45) (my-add 1 2) Only the "1 2" version is followed into "my-add". Is there anyway to force it to look at "3 45" other than commenting out "1 2"? I greatly prefer the idea of showing the value propagation explicitly as you click on things. For example, using lines and arrows to show that this came from there and that came from here.
- simcop2387 14y ago
  In this case I suspect it's dealing with compiler optimizations. The first one is being optimized out since it produces no side effects and the return isn't used anywhere. How to work around this I have no idea.
- johnmw 14y ago
  I'm not sure if this is what you want, but you can turn live evaluation off with Ctrl/Cmd-l and then evaluate the individual line you are interested in with Shift-Enter.
1st1 14y ago
When are you guys planning to add python support? BTW, will it be python 3 or 2?
rbanffy 14y ago
Looks remarkable! Can't wait to try it.
i_cannot_hack 14y ago
I don't have a github account, but since I noticed the creator reads the comments here I'll report some quick bugs I found: 1. Closing parentheses do not work in table mode, the key combination for ")" on my Swedish keyboard produces a "(" instead. (this has already been reported on github) 2. When I was asked to type in "(+ 4 5)" in the scratch during the tutorial, pressing the spacebar without any modifier keys did not register as a keypress. I had to press shift+spacebar to separate the numbers and complete the task. 3. The window displaying all shortcuts (accessed from the bottom right corner) cannot be closed. I had to restart Light Table for it to disappear so that I could continue coding.
- ibdknox 14y ago
  1. yeah, I didn't think about international keyboards. I'll have to come up with something there. 2. just pushed a fix for that 3. Click anywhere outside the box and it'll close. I'll make that more explicit :)
  - i_cannot_hack 14y ago
    Yeah, I realized I had probably missed something when it came to closing the window. Strange how I never managed to click outside the box, considering how much else I tried (pressing esc, clicking inside the box, opening the menu, etc.) :) But I forgot to say how much I love the editor already. Can't wait for the final version!
DigitalJack 14y ago
I love this. Chris Granger is officially one of my heroes. One quick suggestion: on the first time start up of the app, it goes through a brief explanation of the various parts. It might seem obvious to most, but I think it would make it a little nicer if the dialog that says "The instarepl is an area where you can write code..." had an arrow shape, or an arrow in the box pointing toward the repl. Same for the dialog talking about the output area. It's not so much that it's confusing, it's just an unfamiliar interface, and an arrow would be reassuring that what I thought was the repl was really indeed the repl.
pyoung 14y ago
Maybe add '(YC S12)' in the title? I know you were working on this before YC, but these are the kinds of things I like to see get supported.
mvip 14y ago
Go Chris and Rob!
FrojoS 14y ago
Looks cool! When I first saw it I thought you where this guy: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366 Planing to support Octave/Matlab at some point?
mck- 14y ago
I love this thing, ever since you've announced it. Just wondering if it would eventually support Common Lisp?
tocomment 14y ago
So how would I use light table in building a django app? I'm trying to envision some real world use cases for myself.
boris007 14y ago
I have created a Propster fan tip jar for Light Table. When it collects at least $5, Chris will be contact and will get the money.
eranation 14y ago
It's simply great. Any estimates when will the Python module come out?
neutronicus 14y ago
Any plans for emacs keybindings?
- airlocksoftware 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned before that yes, you'll be able to use emacs keybindings. The editing surface is based on CodeMirror http://codemirror.net/ http://codemirror.net/, which is very customizable.
  - mrkrwtsn 14y ago
    The problem right now is that the editor runs in a browser and so the shortcuts for emacs conflict. Why the fuck should a text editor be running in a browser?
    - airlocksoftware 14y ago
      It's using webkit as a rendering engine - while it's in beta, that means a browser (although on mac it runs standalone). I'm pretty sure they've mentioned that Windows & Linux will be a standalone app before the final release.
techtalsky 14y ago
A lot of people are mentioning Python support. I just wanted to put in my vote that Python support will be the thing that gets me to download and try this. It looks awesome but it'll be so much easier for me to relate to if there's a supported language I'm already productive in. I'd like to learn some lisp-likes, but learning a new and innovative IDE at the same time is a bit more to bite off than I have for at one time.
- Swizec 14y ago
  What languages are supported right now? I keep forgetting and all the images are showing clojure. Anyone know if there's any plans for haskell?
  - tsumnia 14y ago
    I believe the first supported languages will be Clojure and Javascript, followed by Python.
- botj 14y ago
  Python is not cool enough for this :) I want Ruby support!!
  - QuantumGuy 14y ago
    Python is a great language and anything that Ruby can do Python can do as well.
    - eranation 14y ago
      So does ASM, and VB6. all languages can do the same (mostly, with some effort), the question is the developer, not the language. a good developer with a bad language can do more than a bad developer with a great language.
      - lucian1900 14y ago
        Sure, but besides some small design and stylistic differences, Python and Ruby are extremely similar, in almost every way.
hndl 14y ago
Anyone using this for "real world" development? How does this compare with something you were previously using?
fdb 14y ago
If you're on Mountain Lion, Gatekeeper won't open the launcher, complaining it isn't signed. The best way around this without touching your security settings is to right-click the launcher and selecting "Open".
snprbob86 14y ago
Chris: I know you're a vim guy, so I know you'll be doing vim bindings eventually. I also know that vim emulation modes are always incomplete. I'd like to offer my services as a vim-mode tester. I vow to provide extremely robust feedback. I'm willing to offer this service for free, so that I can ensure Light Table's vim subset is a superset of my brain's vim subset ;-)
- kamaal 14y ago
  The concept of light table is very different than vim. Besides I believe chris is aiming his IDE for clojure users which in case it makes more sense for him to target it to emacs users. Besides vim is all about modes, and memorizing commands. That is exactly what light table is opposite off. Modes and Commands in vim is 'ancientness' when it comes to usability design. But if you are still interested may be you should build a feature comparison matrix and track it.
  - LiveTheDream 14y ago
    Modes and commands in vim are well designed and useable for an expert, which is the entire point.
- JulianWasTaken 14y ago
  I wish to note that what can be better than one brain's subset: the union of two brain subsets! Hint Hint.
- shabble 14y ago
  From the original kickstarter[1] app: What about key bindings? I'm a VIM guy myself, but since we'll be using the awesome CodeMirror[2] editor, this is something that is easily adapted. If you're looking for a way to contribute, help improve CodeMirror and its emacs/vim plugins! I haven't actually played around with the current release to see if it's been integrated yet, but it's almost certainly part of the plan. [1] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/light-table http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/light-table [2] http://codemirror.net/ http://codemirror.net/
kamaal 14y ago
Some comments in this thread are hilarious. Light Table is a modern IDE meant to demonstrate some cool concepts that belong to this time. And people are asking can if they can have vim and emacs bindings. If all you want is vim or emacs, then use vim or emacs. What is the whole point is asking Light Table to behave like them? Light Table is supposed to bring in new ways of developing software. Dragging ancient usability concepts just because a few can't work with anything else isn't how you build a new product.
- ehsanu1 14y ago
  You would feel differently if you were an avid vim/emacs user. There's no reason you can't combine the interactivity of Light Table with the key bindings from other text editors. The combination may prove more powerful, at least for those with the muscle memory for it.
- breckinloggins 14y ago
  Here is something else that belongs to "this time": the mouse and keyboard. I do hope there will be some time in the future when we never have to type or reach for a mouse because our brains are the only I/O device. But until that time comes, we have essentially the same input mechanisms that we had when Vi and Emacs were invented. In some ways, your point is a valid one; there are many, many features of these old programs that the Light Table developers should spend zero time re-implementing. However, editor bindings are a special case. No matter how fancy the code editing interface is, in the end you still have to type out some code at some point. When the fingers hit the keyboard, many professional programmers have preferred and habitual ways of entering and editing text. In 10 years I might be using a text editor with flying swirling animations and cool animations that "zoom in" on an identifier into its definition, and so forth, but I won't be using it if it doesn't have Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v. Vim and Emacs keybindings are just second nature to many of the core audience for Light Table; it makes sense that those shortcuts are requested. For further evidence that key-bindings and editing modes are acknowledged as universally useful things, regardless of origin, try typing Ctrl+E or Ctrl+A in any OS X text field. You'll jump to the end of beginning of the line, respectively. These are two of the many Emacs keybindings that are supported out of the box on every text control in OS X. Now, to the last part of your point. I agree that these kinds of things shouldn't be the focus when developing a new product. When you're still just trying out ideas, you really don't have the time to implement every little feature request. However, when the thing you're developing is a developer tool, I think it behooves you to design and implement a rich plugin system as one of your first tasks. If your program and programmers have the Lisp nature, you almost do this without a second thought. But the payoff is big. If you can implement most of the program using its own plugin system, you're forced to design highly orthogonal primitives that play well together from the start. The end result is or should be that there's nothing a plugin author can't do that the original developers can do. So if it were me writing this thing, I'd make sure to release a plugin system pretty early and tell everyone who wants to add Emacs, Vim, and Minesweeper to go nuts :)
d2s 14y ago
Impressive project and it certainly gives a good reason to learn Clojure in the future. :) Tried current version and it seemed interesting, even while I'm still quite of a beginner with code.
dmix 14y ago
I tried loading my clojure project (https://github.com/dmix/documeds https://github.com/dmix/documeds) but I'm only getting a "Connecting" loading screen for 30min.
- mischov 14y ago
  It takes a VERY long time to load.
- ibdknox 14y ago
  the reason it fails is because it's looking for an artifact that doesn't exist: Caused by: org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver.MultipleArtifactsNotFoundException: Missing: 1) org.clojure.contrib:prxml:jar:1.3.0-alpha4 Try downloading the file manually from the project website.
wamatt 14y ago
I hope it allows for a "light" theme as well. Not all coding is done on dark backgrounds
- ibdknox 14y ago
  It will, we just haven't gotten to those things yet :)
  - wamatt 14y ago
    Cool, I really like the idea, and will probably become a fan, once it's further along. Bret Victor's talk was truly inspiring, and I'd wish he'd release his tool too for comparison.
Void_ 14y ago
Looks beautiful on a Retina screen. What is the color scheme you're using, by the way?
ludicast 14y ago
Enjoyed playing with light table. Ruby is still my favorite language, but clojure seems to be where all the innovation is at these days.
slurgfest 14y ago
This may sound completely insane or stupid to people who don't configure their tools much or are avid followers of the project - but is it possible to expose the preview functionality so that it can be used with other editors (e.g. vim)? The ideas are interesting but swapping out my entire existing setup for them is not terribly appealing, even with some key-scheme... since I am not using notepad, there is a lot more which goes into my editing environment than the keys. And I am skeptical that anybody is going to do significantly better on text editing.
eranation 14y ago
Shame on you, you made start playing and even liking Lisp instead of working. These were the best sources for me by the way if anyone is interested: http://tryclj.com/ http://tryclj.com/ http://www.4clojure.com/ http://www.4clojure.com/ (both are interactive, more coding, less reading)
minhhuong 14y ago
What languages are supported right now? I keep forgetting and all the images are showing clojure. Anyone know if there's any plans for haskell? http://khamphukhoa.com.vn/ http://khamphukhoa.com.vn/
cellularmitosis 14y ago
I'm wondering how difficult it would be to support Scheme. After seeing http://www.wescheme.org/about/ http://www.wescheme.org/about/ I'm guessing solutions to most of the hard parts are already out there?

297 points by Mariel 14y ago

It's awesome how similar some of this looks to Smalltalk IDEs, with some bonus improvements. It's true that it's high time someone picked up the baton on the concepts they pushed, and I'm pumped to see that Light Table is picking up that baton and running with it to present even more interesting possibilities.

norswap 14y ago
I hope you are wrong, because I find Smalltalk IDEs infuriating. Mostly I dislike the fact I have to either make 10 click to reach any code I want to see, or manage a large number of annoying windows to keep track of what I'm working on.
- tdrgabi 14y ago
  I don't know why you're downvoted. I think you're right. There are lots of windows you have to drag around all the time and click in many places to get to some code.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    Much like when you complain about parenthesis in Lisp, if you complain about windows in Smalltalk (or key combinations on Emacs) you are probably focusing your attention on the wrong thing. Stop fighting the environment. Let it flow around you.
    - ezy 14y ago
      I don't think this type of argument carries much weight. Just because one can get used to something, doesn't really make it a clear choice. All of these environments are good choices for many reasons. However, they aren't without major flaws. Smalltalk environments do tend to be a bear when following the code around window after window, emacs keychords are not very human friendly or composable and can give you RSI, and lisp parentheses are mainly for the convenience of the language parser, not for the programmer (contrary to the famous quote).
      - neutronicus 14y ago
        The convenience for the language parser at least translates into convenience for structured editing in the case of Lisp. I always miss the convenience of modifying code with Paredit when I'm working in another language.
      - nsmartt 14y ago
        Lisp quotes does have plenty of advantages for human reading, though.
      - yoklov 14y ago
        While I don't disagree on your other points, lisp's parentheses aren't just for the convenience of the parser, they're also for the convenience of the programmer who uses macros. Homoiconicity is a huge boon there. Try using another language which allows macros and you'll see what I mean. For example, Haxe allows macros, and while it's syntax for them has recently improved, it still has a ways to go. Here's an example macro which checks if its argument is a constant string, and if it is, reads the file it represents. http://haxe.org/manual/macros/#manipulating-expressions http://haxe.org/manual/macros/#manipulating-expressions edit: The equivalent in clojure would be something like (defmacro get-file-contents [s] (if-not (string? s) (throw (Exception. "Expected string")) (slurp s))) Which happens to look very similar to a function that does the same thing, but at runtime instead of at compile time.
        Raphael_Amiard 14y ago
        The haxe macro reads the file at runtime. Your clojure macro reads the file at compile-time. The proper version would be : (defmacro get-file-contents [s] (if-not (string? s) (throw (Exception. "Expected string")) `(slurp ~s)))
        yoklov 14y ago
        Nope, the Haxe program reads and includes the file at compile time, but only if it's a string literal. If it's an expression that evaluates to a string (which only works if you have static typing, as Haxe does), it reads it at runtime. If its neither it fails.
    - batista 14y ago
      Only the parenthesis in Lisp have to be like that to serve a purpose (data is code is AST, homoiconicity, macros, et al). They cannot really be changed much and still have a Lisp proper. Whereas Smalltalk IDE window handling could be improved tremendously from the mid-90's designs it still carries to this day. Not the reflective/debugging/refactoring capabilities (the good parts). Just the GUI and the handling.
- shadowfiend 14y ago
  More importantly I think than some of the other responses, as I said, Light Table is “picking up that baton and running with it to present even more interesting possibilities”. Taking strong inspiration from some features in Smalltalk IDEs is different from building a Smalltalk-style IDE for Clojure. I see inspiration here, but not straight copying per se.
- e12e 14y ago
  I agree. One of Smalltalk's (the system) greatest assets is that it integrates fantastically with a GUI/mouse input. However, I also find that one of its biggest problems. I've pretty much stopped using the mouse for input -- due to RSI -- and I don't care much for trackballs etc. I think the next five years might vindicate Smalltalk a bit as I expect touch interfaces to keep rising -- both touch in the sense of touching with your finger(s) as well as proper "pen" input (which is much better for drawing anyway). However, for typing -- I still prefer vim -- and at least someone is toying with that idea in Pharo: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Vim-Shortcuts-for-Nautilus-Proof-of-concept-td4638987.html http://forum.world.st/ANN-Vim-Shortcuts-for-Nautilus-Proof-o...
  - jasomill 14y ago
    While your drawing comment leads me to suspect you probably already have one, it's worth pointing out that Wacom pen tablets are an excellent alternative to mice, especially for people who have difficulty using the latter (arthritis in my case), and in particular when using "mouse-heavy" IDEs, as they're particularly good for text selection. I haven't personally used a mouse on a regular basis in well over a decade. More recently, I've also found the combination of large Intuos tablet "stage right" and an Apple Magic Trackpad "stage left" for gestures and other things where precision is unnecessary to be a nice way to spread the load across both hands, though I'm not sure how well it'd work, if at all, under Windows or Linux (natively — it works great with VMware Fusion). And while it'd be a nonstarter for people who do lots of numeric input, I've also found smaller keyboards without numeric keypads can make a significant difference in ergonomics, though this is probably somewhat specific to elbow problems like my own.
    - e12e 14y ago
      Actually no -- I've only recently taken up graphical input (for post-processing/touching up photos) -- and I've yet to invest in any new hardware for that. Your comment on using one for "normal" input is very welcome -- I would've thought they'd be pretty horrible for exactly the things you say they're good at. Moves a wacom tablet higher on my list of hardware to get. Still, if I can afford it when it gets out, I'm considering getting a modbook: http://www.modbook.com/modbookpro http://www.modbook.com/modbookpro I suspect we'll see more hardware along these lines as Microsoft push out w8 and touch input becomes more viable for the mainstream (or perhaps more marketed -- hence increasing the sales/production volume and dropping the price of parts).
- jurre 14y ago
  I felt the exact same way using the Seaside IDE, but I only used it for a day, maybe it just takes some getting used to?

airlocksoftware 14y ago

Chris, if you're around, you mentioned that you're now building Light Table in Light Table. Does this include the front end Clojurescript? Because I would love to move my Clojure / Clojurescript project over to LT if that's possible.

ibdknox 14y ago
It does indeed, but we punted on including CLJS in this release because we didn't have enough time to test it. It should make it into the next release though :)
- airlocksoftware 14y ago
  Very cool. I look forward to it. I'm just poking around this release now, and it's great to see the vision you had in the original video coming together. Not to rush you or anything, but I was wondering how the plugin API was coming along. Is that something that we'll get to play with anytime soon, or will that be something that comes with the final release next year?
- mej10 14y ago
  Isn't it going to be open sourced at some point? Why not just let people get at your dev branches or at least provide builds for them Also, keep up the awesome work!
  - t_hozumi 14y ago
    Even if OSS isn't an option, I think it would be a nice idea for Light Table to provide low level API/Interface so that eco system grow like emacs/vim/eclipse. Perhaps Chris has already considered this idea.
    - airlocksoftware 14y ago
      Yep, that should all be happening. Scroll to the FAQ section of the kickstarter - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table - it will be OSS and will also have an API for developing plugins with Javascript. He's already shown a cool benchmarking mode in one of the videos.

vecinu 14y ago

I'm not sure if Chris or any of you guys have seen this video but it is exactly what Light Table is about to become (perhaps more) and that makes me very excited. http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366

icey 14y ago
Here's the blog post where Chris first talked about Light Table (before it was called Light Table) http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/26/connecting-to-your-creation/ http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/26/connecting-to-your-c...
- vecinu 14y ago
  Oh my. After re-reading that blog post I remember seeing it on HN before. My apologies.
tree_of_item 14y ago
Chris started work on Light Table _because_ of that video. So be excited :)
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AYBABTME 14y ago
I was at this conference (CUSEC 2012[1]), and he (Bret) gave a truly awesome lecture. Also it was my first conference ever, so it's even better. [1] Canadian University Software Engineering Conference, in Montreal.
- vecinu 14y ago
  I managed to make it to CUSEC 2011 but not 2012. Looks like I missed some really great presentations. It's unfortunate when this conference is in another province.

rjsamson 14y ago

I'm really impressed with how this is coming along. The UI has a great feel to it. Playing with LT Playground makes me want to go back and give Clojure another shot. Very cool!

danielweber 14y ago

Constructive criticism: pretend that someone hasn't head of Light Table before. Have a one-sentence description near the top that links to a longer description. (Clicking on "Light Table Playground" takes me a something that includes the features you are working on for Light Box.)

ibdknox 14y ago
done. Thanks for the suggestion! (Side note, the real thing is called "Light Table" too, no light boxes here :)

ezy 14y ago

The live evaluation is nice, but seems a little limited. If I have: (defn my-add [a b] (+ a b)) (my-add 3 45) (my-add 1 2) Only the "1 2" version is followed into "my-add". Is there anyway to force it to look at "3 45" other than commenting out "1 2"? I greatly prefer the idea of showing the value propagation explicitly as you click on things. For example, using lines and arrows to show that this came from there and that came from here.

simcop2387 14y ago
In this case I suspect it's dealing with compiler optimizations. The first one is being optimized out since it produces no side effects and the return isn't used anywhere. How to work around this I have no idea.
johnmw 14y ago
I'm not sure if this is what you want, but you can turn live evaluation off with Ctrl/Cmd-l and then evaluate the individual line you are interested in with Shift-Enter.

1st1 14y ago

When are you guys planning to add python support? BTW, will it be python 3 or 2?

rbanffy 14y ago

Looks remarkable! Can't wait to try it.

i_cannot_hack 14y ago

I don't have a github account, but since I noticed the creator reads the comments here I'll report some quick bugs I found: 1. Closing parentheses do not work in table mode, the key combination for ")" on my Swedish keyboard produces a "(" instead. (this has already been reported on github) 2. When I was asked to type in "(+ 4 5)" in the scratch during the tutorial, pressing the spacebar without any modifier keys did not register as a keypress. I had to press shift+spacebar to separate the numbers and complete the task. 3. The window displaying all shortcuts (accessed from the bottom right corner) cannot be closed. I had to restart Light Table for it to disappear so that I could continue coding.

ibdknox 14y ago
1. yeah, I didn't think about international keyboards. I'll have to come up with something there. 2. just pushed a fix for that 3. Click anywhere outside the box and it'll close. I'll make that more explicit :)
- i_cannot_hack 14y ago
  Yeah, I realized I had probably missed something when it came to closing the window. Strange how I never managed to click outside the box, considering how much else I tried (pressing esc, clicking inside the box, opening the menu, etc.) :) But I forgot to say how much I love the editor already. Can't wait for the final version!

DigitalJack 14y ago

I love this. Chris Granger is officially one of my heroes. One quick suggestion: on the first time start up of the app, it goes through a brief explanation of the various parts. It might seem obvious to most, but I think it would make it a little nicer if the dialog that says "The instarepl is an area where you can write code..." had an arrow shape, or an arrow in the box pointing toward the repl. Same for the dialog talking about the output area. It's not so much that it's confusing, it's just an unfamiliar interface, and an arrow would be reassuring that what I thought was the repl was really indeed the repl.

pyoung 14y ago

Maybe add '(YC S12)' in the title? I know you were working on this before YC, but these are the kinds of things I like to see get supported.

mvip 14y ago

Go Chris and Rob!

FrojoS 14y ago

Looks cool! When I first saw it I thought you where this guy: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle http://vimeo.com/36579366 http://vimeo.com/36579366 Planing to support Octave/Matlab at some point?

mck- 14y ago

I love this thing, ever since you've announced it. Just wondering if it would eventually support Common Lisp?

tocomment 14y ago

So how would I use light table in building a django app? I'm trying to envision some real world use cases for myself.

boris007 14y ago

I have created a Propster fan tip jar for Light Table. When it collects at least $5, Chris will be contact and will get the money.

eranation 14y ago

It's simply great. Any estimates when will the Python module come out?

neutronicus 14y ago

Any plans for emacs keybindings?

airlocksoftware 14y ago
I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned before that yes, you'll be able to use emacs keybindings. The editing surface is based on CodeMirror http://codemirror.net/ http://codemirror.net/, which is very customizable.
- mrkrwtsn 14y ago
  The problem right now is that the editor runs in a browser and so the shortcuts for emacs conflict. Why the fuck should a text editor be running in a browser?
  - airlocksoftware 14y ago
    It's using webkit as a rendering engine - while it's in beta, that means a browser (although on mac it runs standalone). I'm pretty sure they've mentioned that Windows & Linux will be a standalone app before the final release.

techtalsky 14y ago

A lot of people are mentioning Python support. I just wanted to put in my vote that Python support will be the thing that gets me to download and try this. It looks awesome but it'll be so much easier for me to relate to if there's a supported language I'm already productive in. I'd like to learn some lisp-likes, but learning a new and innovative IDE at the same time is a bit more to bite off than I have for at one time.

Swizec 14y ago
What languages are supported right now? I keep forgetting and all the images are showing clojure. Anyone know if there's any plans for haskell?
- tsumnia 14y ago
  I believe the first supported languages will be Clojure and Javascript, followed by Python.
botj 14y ago
Python is not cool enough for this :) I want Ruby support!!
- QuantumGuy 14y ago
  Python is a great language and anything that Ruby can do Python can do as well.
  - eranation 14y ago
    So does ASM, and VB6. all languages can do the same (mostly, with some effort), the question is the developer, not the language. a good developer with a bad language can do more than a bad developer with a great language.
    - lucian1900 14y ago
      Sure, but besides some small design and stylistic differences, Python and Ruby are extremely similar, in almost every way.

hndl 14y ago

Anyone using this for "real world" development? How does this compare with something you were previously using?

fdb 14y ago

If you're on Mountain Lion, Gatekeeper won't open the launcher, complaining it isn't signed. The best way around this without touching your security settings is to right-click the launcher and selecting "Open".

snprbob86 14y ago

Chris: I know you're a vim guy, so I know you'll be doing vim bindings eventually. I also know that vim emulation modes are always incomplete. I'd like to offer my services as a vim-mode tester. I vow to provide extremely robust feedback. I'm willing to offer this service for free, so that I can ensure Light Table's vim subset is a superset of my brain's vim subset ;-)

kamaal 14y ago
The concept of light table is very different than vim. Besides I believe chris is aiming his IDE for clojure users which in case it makes more sense for him to target it to emacs users. Besides vim is all about modes, and memorizing commands. That is exactly what light table is opposite off. Modes and Commands in vim is 'ancientness' when it comes to usability design. But if you are still interested may be you should build a feature comparison matrix and track it.
- LiveTheDream 14y ago
  Modes and commands in vim are well designed and useable for an expert, which is the entire point.
JulianWasTaken 14y ago
I wish to note that what can be better than one brain's subset: the union of two brain subsets! Hint Hint.
shabble 14y ago
From the original kickstarter[1] app: What about key bindings? I'm a VIM guy myself, but since we'll be using the awesome CodeMirror[2] editor, this is something that is easily adapted. If you're looking for a way to contribute, help improve CodeMirror and its emacs/vim plugins! I haven't actually played around with the current release to see if it's been integrated yet, but it's almost certainly part of the plan. [1] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/light-table http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/light-table [2] http://codemirror.net/ http://codemirror.net/

kamaal 14y ago

Some comments in this thread are hilarious. Light Table is a modern IDE meant to demonstrate some cool concepts that belong to this time. And people are asking can if they can have vim and emacs bindings. If all you want is vim or emacs, then use vim or emacs. What is the whole point is asking Light Table to behave like them? Light Table is supposed to bring in new ways of developing software. Dragging ancient usability concepts just because a few can't work with anything else isn't how you build a new product.

ehsanu1 14y ago
You would feel differently if you were an avid vim/emacs user. There's no reason you can't combine the interactivity of Light Table with the key bindings from other text editors. The combination may prove more powerful, at least for those with the muscle memory for it.
breckinloggins 14y ago
Here is something else that belongs to "this time": the mouse and keyboard. I do hope there will be some time in the future when we never have to type or reach for a mouse because our brains are the only I/O device. But until that time comes, we have essentially the same input mechanisms that we had when Vi and Emacs were invented. In some ways, your point is a valid one; there are many, many features of these old programs that the Light Table developers should spend zero time re-implementing. However, editor bindings are a special case. No matter how fancy the code editing interface is, in the end you still have to type out some code at some point. When the fingers hit the keyboard, many professional programmers have preferred and habitual ways of entering and editing text. In 10 years I might be using a text editor with flying swirling animations and cool animations that "zoom in" on an identifier into its definition, and so forth, but I won't be using it if it doesn't have Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v. Vim and Emacs keybindings are just second nature to many of the core audience for Light Table; it makes sense that those shortcuts are requested. For further evidence that key-bindings and editing modes are acknowledged as universally useful things, regardless of origin, try typing Ctrl+E or Ctrl+A in any OS X text field. You'll jump to the end of beginning of the line, respectively. These are two of the many Emacs keybindings that are supported out of the box on every text control in OS X. Now, to the last part of your point. I agree that these kinds of things shouldn't be the focus when developing a new product. When you're still just trying out ideas, you really don't have the time to implement every little feature request. However, when the thing you're developing is a developer tool, I think it behooves you to design and implement a rich plugin system as one of your first tasks. If your program and programmers have the Lisp nature, you almost do this without a second thought. But the payoff is big. If you can implement most of the program using its own plugin system, you're forced to design highly orthogonal primitives that play well together from the start. The end result is or should be that there's nothing a plugin author can't do that the original developers can do. So if it were me writing this thing, I'd make sure to release a plugin system pretty early and tell everyone who wants to add Emacs, Vim, and Minesweeper to go nuts :)

d2s 14y ago

Impressive project and it certainly gives a good reason to learn Clojure in the future. :) Tried current version and it seemed interesting, even while I'm still quite of a beginner with code.

dmix 14y ago

I tried loading my clojure project (https://github.com/dmix/documeds https://github.com/dmix/documeds) but I'm only getting a "Connecting" loading screen for 30min.

mischov 14y ago
It takes a VERY long time to load.
ibdknox 14y ago
the reason it fails is because it's looking for an artifact that doesn't exist: Caused by: org.apache.maven.artifact.resolver.MultipleArtifactsNotFoundException: Missing: 1) org.clojure.contrib:prxml:jar:1.3.0-alpha4 Try downloading the file manually from the project website.

wamatt 14y ago

I hope it allows for a "light" theme as well. Not all coding is done on dark backgrounds

ibdknox 14y ago
It will, we just haven't gotten to those things yet :)
- wamatt 14y ago
  Cool, I really like the idea, and will probably become a fan, once it's further along. Bret Victor's talk was truly inspiring, and I'd wish he'd release his tool too for comparison.

Void_ 14y ago

Looks beautiful on a Retina screen. What is the color scheme you're using, by the way?

ludicast 14y ago

Enjoyed playing with light table. Ruby is still my favorite language, but clojure seems to be where all the innovation is at these days.

slurgfest 14y ago

This may sound completely insane or stupid to people who don't configure their tools much or are avid followers of the project - but is it possible to expose the preview functionality so that it can be used with other editors (e.g. vim)? The ideas are interesting but swapping out my entire existing setup for them is not terribly appealing, even with some key-scheme... since I am not using notepad, there is a lot more which goes into my editing environment than the keys. And I am skeptical that anybody is going to do significantly better on text editing.

eranation 14y ago

Shame on you, you made start playing and even liking Lisp instead of working. These were the best sources for me by the way if anyone is interested: http://tryclj.com/ http://tryclj.com/ http://www.4clojure.com/ http://www.4clojure.com/ (both are interactive, more coding, less reading)

minhhuong 14y ago

What languages are supported right now? I keep forgetting and all the images are showing clojure. Anyone know if there's any plans for haskell? http://khamphukhoa.com.vn/ http://khamphukhoa.com.vn/

cellularmitosis 14y ago

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to support Scheme. After seeing http://www.wescheme.org/about/ http://www.wescheme.org/about/ I'm guessing solutions to most of the hard parts are already out there?