6 ms·

But they are heavier. Not saying it offsets the effect but it's just not straight forward to assume either way.

bornfreddy 1y ago
It doesn't matter though? Less braking material used equals less particles emitted. So if we accept that brakes on EVs last longer (and are otherwise similar in size), then they pollute less.
AnthonyMouse 1y ago
They're not inherently heavier. They're only heavier if you put a long-range battery in them, even then it's not by very much, and even that may not persist as higher energy density batteries are developed. Or to put it another way, the difference between a small car and a large SUV is far greater than the difference between an electric car and a gasoline car.
- rowanG077 1y ago
  It's true they are not that much heavier in terms of pure numbers. But road wear is a proportional to the difference in axle weight to the fourth power.
  - pornel 1y ago
    But this also means that almost all of the wear is from trucks. This whole meme comes from junk science (https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-...) > we found that the car emitted 5.8 grams per kilometer of particles. Compared with regulated exhaust emission limits of 4.5 milligrams per kilometer, the completely unregulated tyre wear emission is higher by a factor of over 1,000. They took plastic shedded by a gas car on non-EV tires, and compared it by weight to safety limits for gaseous emissions. This makes as much sense as saying that a lump of coal has 1,000 times more carbon than the safety limits for carbon monoxide.
    - rowanG077 1y ago
      What meme? The article you linked talks about tire wear. Not road wear. I didn't even touch on tire wear. Road wear is well studied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law I really can't place your comment, you simply start talking about something completely unrelated to what I was talking about.
    - jodrellblank 1y ago
      That doesn't pass a sniff test; emitting 5 grams of tyre rubber per kilometer, a 12Kg tyre would be completely vanished in 3000km but really they can last 60,000km with only the tread worn down beyond safe levels and the bulk of the tyre still there.
      - hugh-avherald 1y ago
        Looks like mg was changed to a g, though I'd suggest even then the estimate is too high (but probably to the correct order of magnitude).
- merman 1y ago
  Size for size they’re heavier. Maybe someday not but they are.
  - iknowstuff 1y ago
    The Standard Range model 3 weighs 3,582 lbs, while the Long Range and Performance trims both weigh 4,065 lbs. The BMW 3 Series has a curb weight ranging from 3,536 to 4,180 pounds
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      Drives me up the wall that medium sedans curb in the same ballpark as fullsize trucks from the 70s and 80s.
  - philjohn 1y ago
    But the fact that EV brakes don't wear at nearly the same rate as ICE brakes still stands. My EV6 (pretty heavy car) manual explicitly says "you should probably do some hard breaking from moderate speed to prevent corrosion on the brake discs". Because 90+% of the time when you press the brake pedal the friction brakes aren't being used at all, it's all regen.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  A Tesla Model Y is 30% heavier than a Honda CRV. They have alot of other advantages, and are about the same weight as a three-row SUV and lighter than a Tahoe on a truck frame. We shouldn’t be singling out EVs if we suddenly care about tire wear… it’s pretty ridiculous.
  - Retric 1y ago
    Those are wildly different crossovers. That glass roof on the Y adds a lot of weight, it’s kind of silly how popular such an impractical feature became. The other common issue with EV’s is many don’t integrate the batteries casing as a structural element. Skipping the lead acid battery would also be useful, but that’s a different issue.
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    The lightest current Tesla Model Y is ~25% heavier than the lightest current Honda CR-V. The heaviest current Model Y is ~12% heavier than the heaviest current CR-V (hybrid). A Jeep Grand Wagoneer is ~280% heavier than a Nissan Versa.
    - Spooky23 1y ago
      Again, bike-shedding stats on EVs is a waste of time if you care about pollution from tire wear. If we want to reduce particulate pollution, we’d have regulations to govern acceleration on EVs, make tire monitoring more annoying, and have manufacturers certify tires and make compliance required during state emissions inspections, and get aggressive about the motor carrier overweight enforcement. If Tesla or other EVs have a problem here, it’s that they are putting inappropriate tires on the cars.
      - Retric 1y ago
        There’s a great deal possible that could reduce pollution that has nothing to do with tires. Outlawing non hybrid gas / diesel cars for example would be a significant step forward. As would favoring rail over big rig trucking etc. Instead the topic is almost exclusively brought up as an attack without any real world studies supporting the ideas presented. Because actual studies show EV’s improve air quality over ICE engines.
djaychela 1y ago
But the brakes don't get used 90% of the time,it's all regen.
Reason077 1y ago
EVs have very low brake wear because you simply aren’t using the friction brakes at all most of the time. A lot of EVs even have smart “blended” brake pedals that preferentially apply regen braking when you press the pedal. Only in particularly hard stops will the friction brakes get used. An easy way to test/observe this is simply to check for wear on the brake pads of EVs compared to combustion vehicles of similar mileage. Tires, on the other hand, do tend to wear out quicker in an EV. Partly due to weight and also due to higher performance/acceleration compared to combustion models.
- looofooo0 1y ago
  This little friction break usage is actually something which manufacture need to consider. They need to activate once in a while to stop rust and other problems.
  - otterley 1y ago
    They almost certainly do. For example, our Chevy Volt (EV + gasoline engine range booster) puts the engine through a maintenance phase if you haven’t used the engine in a few weeks, and will force the engine to consume any fuel left in the tank if it hasn’t been refilled in several months.
    - arghwhat 1y ago
      We're talking about brakes, not engines. But I know at least one EV maker that has a manually selected mode that guides you through driving with the brakes engaged for surface treatment, as rust buildup will be the main issue.
bryanlarsen 1y ago
In the US, the average car weight and the average EV weight are basically identical. (4300 pounds vs 4400 pounds). When you compare similarly sized models the EV tends to be about 10% heavier, but gasoline cars tend to be larger than EV's.
- arghwhat 1y ago
  In the EU an average car is 1400 kg (3000 lbs), with most vehicles probably in the 1000-1200 kg range. We don't really want the average here, but the median - and we don't want to compare to the average EV, but to the equivalent EV - comparing an F150 to, say, a model 3 isn't right. A BYD Dolphin, roughly sized like a VW Polo, is some 400kg heavier than the polo. A Polestar 2 is roughly 500 kg heavier than equivalent sized cars. In other words, something like 33% heavier.
  - slaw 1y ago
    BYD Dolphin is size of Golf not Polo. BYD Dolphin weight 1600kg, length 4290mm. VW Polo weight 1580kg, length 3971 mm. https://www.automobiledimension.com/model/byd/dolphin https://www.automobiledimension.com/model/byd/dolphin https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/cars/volkswagen-polo/specs/gt-tsi https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/cars/volkswagen-po...
    - arghwhat 1y ago
      You are comparing the max loaded weight of the polo with the unloaded weight of a dolphin. VW Polo Mk6 is 1751mm wide, 1461mm tall, 4067mm long and has an unloaded curb weight of 1105 kg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk6 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk6 The BYD Dolphin 2025 60kWh is 1770mm wide, 1570mm tall, 4290mm long, and has an unloaded curb weight of 1658 kg. https://bydautomotive.com.au/brochures/BYD-DOLPHIN-2025.pdf https://bydautomotive.com.au/brochures/BYD-DOLPHIN-2025.pdf. The VW Golf Mk8 might be a better comparison with an unloaded curb weight of 1255 kg, which reduces the gap from 543kg to 403kg. (Note that for the gasoline and diesel cars, lighter trims give longer range, whereas it is opposite for electric cars, and that a fully loaded 45L tank of a polo weighs less than 40kg, especially if gasoline)
gambiting 1y ago
My Volvo XC60 T8 is not even a full EV but after 5 years of ownership the brakes on this 2200kg, 400bhp SUV are only 10% worn - it's all thanks to regenerative braking with the EV motor. It definitely makes a massive impact on how quickly the brakes wear out(as in - much much much less than in a normal car).
potato3732842 1y ago
The pads aren't any bigger. If they last longer then they're emitting less.
originalvichy 1y ago
If you want to go into the details of this, for all the things people hve mentioned, you have to calculate the road wear done by trucks carrying fuels to stations every day. Electricity does not need the same regular road wear as ICE vehicles do.
- cogman10 1y ago
  Yeah, the refining and transport of petroleum products always gets left out when talking about EV pollution. It's pretty energy intensive to separate crude oil into it's various parts.
  - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
    Sure. Because windmills and photovoltaics grow naturally from seeds. You need quite a bit of an equipment to put up one windmill. They are usually built in some distance from an existing road. So you need special service roads. Those need to be wide and take heavy load because the equipment like cranes need space and are themselves heavy. Then you need special transport because main components like propellers are oversize load. Then you need to transport them hundreds for kilometres…, and then you need the rest of the infrastructure to distribute generated electricity. Yes, let’s compare apples to apples.
    - cogman10 1y ago
      Yes and what's the service life for that windmill or solar panel? What's the service life of the distribution system? And what was the cost to build out and constantly repair the refinery? The problem you have with your talking points is that solar and wind both have decades of service in them whereas fossil fuels are single use product. Further, once the infrastructure is created large portions of it can be reused when solar and wind hit their end of life. You only need new lines and roads for new installations. All energy collection will have some environmental impact. It just so happens that fossil fuels have an outsized impact for the energy they create.
      - deleted 1y ago
josephcsible 1y ago
It is in fact straightforward to assume EVs create way, way less brake dust, because of how much less often they need brake replacements than ICE vehicles with the exact same brakes.

It doesn't matter though? Less braking material used equals less particles emitted. So if we accept that brakes on EVs last longer (and are otherwise similar in size), then they pollute less.

AnthonyMouse 1y ago

They're not inherently heavier. They're only heavier if you put a long-range battery in them, even then it's not by very much, and even that may not persist as higher energy density batteries are developed. Or to put it another way, the difference between a small car and a large SUV is far greater than the difference between an electric car and a gasoline car.

rowanG077 1y ago
It's true they are not that much heavier in terms of pure numbers. But road wear is a proportional to the difference in axle weight to the fourth power.
- pornel 1y ago
  But this also means that almost all of the wear is from trucks. This whole meme comes from junk science (https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-...) > we found that the car emitted 5.8 grams per kilometer of particles. Compared with regulated exhaust emission limits of 4.5 milligrams per kilometer, the completely unregulated tyre wear emission is higher by a factor of over 1,000. They took plastic shedded by a gas car on non-EV tires, and compared it by weight to safety limits for gaseous emissions. This makes as much sense as saying that a lump of coal has 1,000 times more carbon than the safety limits for carbon monoxide.
  - rowanG077 1y ago
    What meme? The article you linked talks about tire wear. Not road wear. I didn't even touch on tire wear. Road wear is well studied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law I really can't place your comment, you simply start talking about something completely unrelated to what I was talking about.
  - jodrellblank 1y ago
    That doesn't pass a sniff test; emitting 5 grams of tyre rubber per kilometer, a 12Kg tyre would be completely vanished in 3000km but really they can last 60,000km with only the tread worn down beyond safe levels and the bulk of the tyre still there.
    - hugh-avherald 1y ago
      Looks like mg was changed to a g, though I'd suggest even then the estimate is too high (but probably to the correct order of magnitude).
merman 1y ago
Size for size they’re heavier. Maybe someday not but they are.
- iknowstuff 1y ago
  The Standard Range model 3 weighs 3,582 lbs, while the Long Range and Performance trims both weigh 4,065 lbs. The BMW 3 Series has a curb weight ranging from 3,536 to 4,180 pounds
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    Drives me up the wall that medium sedans curb in the same ballpark as fullsize trucks from the 70s and 80s.
- philjohn 1y ago
  But the fact that EV brakes don't wear at nearly the same rate as ICE brakes still stands. My EV6 (pretty heavy car) manual explicitly says "you should probably do some hard breaking from moderate speed to prevent corrosion on the brake discs". Because 90+% of the time when you press the brake pedal the friction brakes aren't being used at all, it's all regen.
Spooky23 1y ago
A Tesla Model Y is 30% heavier than a Honda CRV. They have alot of other advantages, and are about the same weight as a three-row SUV and lighter than a Tahoe on a truck frame. We shouldn’t be singling out EVs if we suddenly care about tire wear… it’s pretty ridiculous.
- Retric 1y ago
  Those are wildly different crossovers. That glass roof on the Y adds a lot of weight, it’s kind of silly how popular such an impractical feature became. The other common issue with EV’s is many don’t integrate the batteries casing as a structural element. Skipping the lead acid battery would also be useful, but that’s a different issue.
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  The lightest current Tesla Model Y is ~25% heavier than the lightest current Honda CR-V. The heaviest current Model Y is ~12% heavier than the heaviest current CR-V (hybrid). A Jeep Grand Wagoneer is ~280% heavier than a Nissan Versa.
  - Spooky23 1y ago
    Again, bike-shedding stats on EVs is a waste of time if you care about pollution from tire wear. If we want to reduce particulate pollution, we’d have regulations to govern acceleration on EVs, make tire monitoring more annoying, and have manufacturers certify tires and make compliance required during state emissions inspections, and get aggressive about the motor carrier overweight enforcement. If Tesla or other EVs have a problem here, it’s that they are putting inappropriate tires on the cars.
    - Retric 1y ago
      There’s a great deal possible that could reduce pollution that has nothing to do with tires. Outlawing non hybrid gas / diesel cars for example would be a significant step forward. As would favoring rail over big rig trucking etc. Instead the topic is almost exclusively brought up as an attack without any real world studies supporting the ideas presented. Because actual studies show EV’s improve air quality over ICE engines.

djaychela 1y ago

But the brakes don't get used 90% of the time,it's all regen.

Reason077 1y ago

EVs have very low brake wear because you simply aren’t using the friction brakes at all most of the time. A lot of EVs even have smart “blended” brake pedals that preferentially apply regen braking when you press the pedal. Only in particularly hard stops will the friction brakes get used. An easy way to test/observe this is simply to check for wear on the brake pads of EVs compared to combustion vehicles of similar mileage. Tires, on the other hand, do tend to wear out quicker in an EV. Partly due to weight and also due to higher performance/acceleration compared to combustion models.

looofooo0 1y ago
This little friction break usage is actually something which manufacture need to consider. They need to activate once in a while to stop rust and other problems.
- otterley 1y ago
  They almost certainly do. For example, our Chevy Volt (EV + gasoline engine range booster) puts the engine through a maintenance phase if you haven’t used the engine in a few weeks, and will force the engine to consume any fuel left in the tank if it hasn’t been refilled in several months.
  - arghwhat 1y ago
    We're talking about brakes, not engines. But I know at least one EV maker that has a manually selected mode that guides you through driving with the brakes engaged for surface treatment, as rust buildup will be the main issue.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

In the US, the average car weight and the average EV weight are basically identical. (4300 pounds vs 4400 pounds). When you compare similarly sized models the EV tends to be about 10% heavier, but gasoline cars tend to be larger than EV's.

arghwhat 1y ago
In the EU an average car is 1400 kg (3000 lbs), with most vehicles probably in the 1000-1200 kg range. We don't really want the average here, but the median - and we don't want to compare to the average EV, but to the equivalent EV - comparing an F150 to, say, a model 3 isn't right. A BYD Dolphin, roughly sized like a VW Polo, is some 400kg heavier than the polo. A Polestar 2 is roughly 500 kg heavier than equivalent sized cars. In other words, something like 33% heavier.
- slaw 1y ago
  BYD Dolphin is size of Golf not Polo. BYD Dolphin weight 1600kg, length 4290mm. VW Polo weight 1580kg, length 3971 mm. https://www.automobiledimension.com/model/byd/dolphin https://www.automobiledimension.com/model/byd/dolphin https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/cars/volkswagen-polo/specs/gt-tsi https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/cars/volkswagen-po...
  - arghwhat 1y ago
    You are comparing the max loaded weight of the polo with the unloaded weight of a dolphin. VW Polo Mk6 is 1751mm wide, 1461mm tall, 4067mm long and has an unloaded curb weight of 1105 kg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk6 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Polo_Mk6 The BYD Dolphin 2025 60kWh is 1770mm wide, 1570mm tall, 4290mm long, and has an unloaded curb weight of 1658 kg. https://bydautomotive.com.au/brochures/BYD-DOLPHIN-2025.pdf https://bydautomotive.com.au/brochures/BYD-DOLPHIN-2025.pdf. The VW Golf Mk8 might be a better comparison with an unloaded curb weight of 1255 kg, which reduces the gap from 543kg to 403kg. (Note that for the gasoline and diesel cars, lighter trims give longer range, whereas it is opposite for electric cars, and that a fully loaded 45L tank of a polo weighs less than 40kg, especially if gasoline)

gambiting 1y ago

My Volvo XC60 T8 is not even a full EV but after 5 years of ownership the brakes on this 2200kg, 400bhp SUV are only 10% worn - it's all thanks to regenerative braking with the EV motor. It definitely makes a massive impact on how quickly the brakes wear out(as in - much much much less than in a normal car).

potato3732842 1y ago

The pads aren't any bigger. If they last longer then they're emitting less.

originalvichy 1y ago

If you want to go into the details of this, for all the things people hve mentioned, you have to calculate the road wear done by trucks carrying fuels to stations every day. Electricity does not need the same regular road wear as ICE vehicles do.

cogman10 1y ago
Yeah, the refining and transport of petroleum products always gets left out when talking about EV pollution. It's pretty energy intensive to separate crude oil into it's various parts.
- rad_gruchalski 1y ago
  Sure. Because windmills and photovoltaics grow naturally from seeds. You need quite a bit of an equipment to put up one windmill. They are usually built in some distance from an existing road. So you need special service roads. Those need to be wide and take heavy load because the equipment like cranes need space and are themselves heavy. Then you need special transport because main components like propellers are oversize load. Then you need to transport them hundreds for kilometres…, and then you need the rest of the infrastructure to distribute generated electricity. Yes, let’s compare apples to apples.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    Yes and what's the service life for that windmill or solar panel? What's the service life of the distribution system? And what was the cost to build out and constantly repair the refinery? The problem you have with your talking points is that solar and wind both have decades of service in them whereas fossil fuels are single use product. Further, once the infrastructure is created large portions of it can be reused when solar and wind hit their end of life. You only need new lines and roads for new installations. All energy collection will have some environmental impact. It just so happens that fossil fuels have an outsized impact for the energy they create.
    - deleted 1y ago

josephcsible 1y ago

It is in fact straightforward to assume EVs create way, way less brake dust, because of how much less often they need brake replacements than ICE vehicles with the exact same brakes.