7 ms·

I mean, if protesting for the Palestinian cause can get your green card revoked, I don't think America has any moral high ground on the topic of free speech any

by michh 2y ago

I mean, if protesting for the Palestinian cause can get your green card revoked, I don't think America has any moral high ground on the topic of free speech anymore.

carlosjobim 2y ago
There's an enormous difference between expelling a foreigner and imprisoning a citizen. America absolutely has the upper hand in free speech. In Europe you will get sentenced for blaspheming against the Quran. Edit: That's why the Quran burnings in Sweden was such a big deal. It was one of the countries who hadn't outlawed blasphemy against Islam. Of course any blasphemy against Christianity is perfectly legal in Europe and strongly encouraged.
- riffraff 2y ago
  where do you get sentenced for blaspheming the Quran in the EU? Italy is a traditional religious country and blaspheming gets you <checks notes> a 50€ fine. Also, not a big deal if your blasphemies ara against Mary, that's ok.
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    In Finland. Do you want the court case number? Edit: I'll give you an easily digestible link in English from the government television channel: https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426 https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426 "The UN Human Rights Committee has urged Finland to change the criminal provision, arguing that it restricts freedom of expression." You can easily find the law in matter, the prime minister on video saying that burning the Quran is outlawed, and many other media links from government channels talking about this. And there are court cases where people have been sentenced in Finland for burning the Quran – not in public as has been the case in Sweden. Before you write that the law applies to the Bible and Christians as well – it is not the case. Police, prosecutors and judges will not use the law against any other blasphemy than against Islam.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    A fine is a sentence, and I think it's a big deal that the law is applied inconsistently between e.g. Mary and Mohammed.
    - riffraff 2y ago
      I thought "sentence" is used for criminal offenses https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentenced https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentenced might be a difference in meaning among jurisdictions. EDIT: yeah it's odd that blasphemy against Mary is not illegal, but well, technical not a deity
      - carlosjobim 2y ago
        And who exactly considers Mohammed to be a deity? Edit: Blaspheming against Islam is a criminal offense in many European jurisdictions.
        riffraff 2y ago
        I don't know who does, but not the Italian legislation, blaspheming Mohammed appears to be ok in Italy too. We don't know for sure cause there is no case law, while blaspheming Mary has been argued in court.
  - immibis 2y ago
    What they were probably referring to is the times people made a nuisance of themselves or harassed Muslims in public with Quran blasphemy. Nowhere in Europe is it illegal to sit at home and eat pork. It is illegal to harass other people. I gather that's not illegal in the US (unless the people you harass happen to be powerful) and the general mindset in the US is so far in that direction that a lot of Americans can't even conceptualize what harassment is.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  It's just punishment differences based on paperwork available, that doesn't mean there's difference in the designation of the action as "crime".
- pona-a 2y ago
  You are facing a constitutional crisis right now, something most EU members can say they do not. > Khalil called his lawyer, Amy Greer, from the building's lobby. She spoke over the phone with one of the ICE agents, who told her they were acting on State Department orders to revoke Khalil’s student visa. Greer said when she informed the agent that Khalil was a permanent resident of the U.S. in possession of a green card, the agent responded they would revoke the green card instead. When Greer said she needed to see a warrant before Khalil could be detained, the agent hung up. Abdalla said they were not shown a warrant and that "within minutes, they had handcuffed Mahmoud, took him out into the street and forced him into an unmarked car". A Columbia spokesperson declined to say whether, before the arrest, the university had received a warrant for the ICE agents to access property the university owned. The spokesperson also declined to comment on the arrest. > On March 9, Greer said she was uncertain of Khalil's whereabouts, noting the possibility that he could be as far away as Louisiana. Abdalla, who sought to visit him at a detention center in New Jersey, was informed that he was not there. Khalil is detained at the LaSalle Detention Center in Jena, Louisiana. [0] Without appropriate warrants or being accused of a tangible crime in the court of law, a permanent USA resident has been detained, while being denied his right to speak with his lawyer for a significant part of his detention, with the post-hoc justification being his engagement in "anti-American", though not illegal, activity, ignoring claims of monetary ties with terrorist orgs made on national TV without being able to provide any corroboration when pressured. Let's ignore political affiliations, who's on what team, and who you're rooting for. Applying abstraction, replace America with "Country X" and you see, plain as day, this as an attempt at silencing unfavorable speech. As a Ukrainian, sharing a language, geography, and personal connections across the border with Russia, I can tell you with certainty: this is how "disappearing" someone looks like. The target does not matter; the "enemies of people" set has a funny tendency to expand, starting from those for whom the least will stand up. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    > you see, plain as day, this as an attempt at silencing unfavorable speech. Of course it is. But there's a huge difference between making a foreigner leave, and sentencing a citizen. Any foreigner can be denied entry to a country for any and no reason whatsoever, without any due process. So a foreigner's "right" to stay in a country sits very loosely.
- michh 2y ago
  I don’t know where you’re getting your news but this simply isn’t true
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Directly from the courts of law. When European governments and courts do unflattering things, the media makes sure to shuffle it under the carpet. There's a very different culture around free speech and public debate in Europe vs America.
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      I have downvoted your comment because of "the media makes sure to shuffle it under the carpet". These cases are widely reported in national media. I wasn't familiar with the Finnish politician, but it's easy to find coverage of the case and related news on Finland's national broadcaster: https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426 https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426
      - carlosjobim 2y ago
        Well I'm not talking about any Finnish politician. I'm talking about everyday people who get sentenced by the courts for blasphemy against Islam. These cases get local media coverage at most.
        fundatus 2y ago
        Believe me, I think blasphemy laws should be abolished everywhere, but publicly burning Bibles/Qurans/whatever doesn't sounds like a "everyday people" activity to me.
        carlosjobim 2y ago
        This is a somewhat typical European response, even though you might not be European: always blame the victim. Everyday people are killing each other in trenches in the Ukraine as we speak. The cases I know where "everyday people" have been sentenced for blasphemy against Islam is when people have emotionally lashed out. One case where a gay man live streamed himself spitting at the Quran and cursing it after the Orlando nightclub massacre in the name of the Quran. It wasn't a real Quran, but the court said that it didn't matter. He might not be an "everyday person" to you. You might have acted more cool in such a situation. And there are a plethora of other cases where Europeans have been sentenced for publicly criticizing Islam, where no Quran burning has been involved. The situation in reality, beyond hacker ideology, is that European countries are prosecuting and sentencing people for blaspheming or criticizing Islam. And it usually is not activists who are targeted.
Shekelphile 2y ago
Speech in support of terrorist groups isn't protected in the US.
immibis 2y ago
It's the same way in Germany. I suppose the difference is that America claims to have free speech and Germany doesn't. Germany claims to have "freedom of opinion" (Meinungsfreiheit) though, which it clearly does not.

by michh 2y ago

I mean, if protesting for the Palestinian cause can get your green card revoked, I don't think America has any moral high ground on the topic of free speech anymore.

carlosjobim 2y ago

There's an enormous difference between expelling a foreigner and imprisoning a citizen. America absolutely has the upper hand in free speech. In Europe you will get sentenced for blaspheming against the Quran. Edit: That's why the Quran burnings in Sweden was such a big deal. It was one of the countries who hadn't outlawed blasphemy against Islam. Of course any blasphemy against Christianity is perfectly legal in Europe and strongly encouraged.

riffraff 2y ago
where do you get sentenced for blaspheming the Quran in the EU? Italy is a traditional religious country and blaspheming gets you <checks notes> a 50€ fine. Also, not a big deal if your blasphemies ara against Mary, that's ok.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  In Finland. Do you want the court case number? Edit: I'll give you an easily digestible link in English from the government television channel: https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426 https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426 "The UN Human Rights Committee has urged Finland to change the criminal provision, arguing that it restricts freedom of expression." You can easily find the law in matter, the prime minister on video saying that burning the Quran is outlawed, and many other media links from government channels talking about this. And there are court cases where people have been sentenced in Finland for burning the Quran – not in public as has been the case in Sweden. Before you write that the law applies to the Bible and Christians as well – it is not the case. Police, prosecutors and judges will not use the law against any other blasphemy than against Islam.
- Symbiote 2y ago
  A fine is a sentence, and I think it's a big deal that the law is applied inconsistently between e.g. Mary and Mohammed.
  - riffraff 2y ago
    I thought "sentence" is used for criminal offenses https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentenced https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentenced might be a difference in meaning among jurisdictions. EDIT: yeah it's odd that blasphemy against Mary is not illegal, but well, technical not a deity
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      And who exactly considers Mohammed to be a deity? Edit: Blaspheming against Islam is a criminal offense in many European jurisdictions.
      - riffraff 2y ago
        I don't know who does, but not the Italian legislation, blaspheming Mohammed appears to be ok in Italy too. We don't know for sure cause there is no case law, while blaspheming Mary has been argued in court.
- immibis 2y ago
  What they were probably referring to is the times people made a nuisance of themselves or harassed Muslims in public with Quran blasphemy. Nowhere in Europe is it illegal to sit at home and eat pork. It is illegal to harass other people. I gather that's not illegal in the US (unless the people you harass happen to be powerful) and the general mindset in the US is so far in that direction that a lot of Americans can't even conceptualize what harassment is.
mrtksn 2y ago
It's just punishment differences based on paperwork available, that doesn't mean there's difference in the designation of the action as "crime".
pona-a 2y ago
You are facing a constitutional crisis right now, something most EU members can say they do not. > Khalil called his lawyer, Amy Greer, from the building's lobby. She spoke over the phone with one of the ICE agents, who told her they were acting on State Department orders to revoke Khalil’s student visa. Greer said when she informed the agent that Khalil was a permanent resident of the U.S. in possession of a green card, the agent responded they would revoke the green card instead. When Greer said she needed to see a warrant before Khalil could be detained, the agent hung up. Abdalla said they were not shown a warrant and that "within minutes, they had handcuffed Mahmoud, took him out into the street and forced him into an unmarked car". A Columbia spokesperson declined to say whether, before the arrest, the university had received a warrant for the ICE agents to access property the university owned. The spokesperson also declined to comment on the arrest. > On March 9, Greer said she was uncertain of Khalil's whereabouts, noting the possibility that he could be as far away as Louisiana. Abdalla, who sought to visit him at a detention center in New Jersey, was informed that he was not there. Khalil is detained at the LaSalle Detention Center in Jena, Louisiana. [0] Without appropriate warrants or being accused of a tangible crime in the court of law, a permanent USA resident has been detained, while being denied his right to speak with his lawyer for a significant part of his detention, with the post-hoc justification being his engagement in "anti-American", though not illegal, activity, ignoring claims of monetary ties with terrorist orgs made on national TV without being able to provide any corroboration when pressured. Let's ignore political affiliations, who's on what team, and who you're rooting for. Applying abstraction, replace America with "Country X" and you see, plain as day, this as an attempt at silencing unfavorable speech. As a Ukrainian, sharing a language, geography, and personal connections across the border with Russia, I can tell you with certainty: this is how "disappearing" someone looks like. The target does not matter; the "enemies of people" set has a funny tendency to expand, starting from those for whom the least will stand up. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  > you see, plain as day, this as an attempt at silencing unfavorable speech. Of course it is. But there's a huge difference between making a foreigner leave, and sentencing a citizen. Any foreigner can be denied entry to a country for any and no reason whatsoever, without any due process. So a foreigner's "right" to stay in a country sits very loosely.
michh 2y ago
I don’t know where you’re getting your news but this simply isn’t true
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  Directly from the courts of law. When European governments and courts do unflattering things, the media makes sure to shuffle it under the carpet. There's a very different culture around free speech and public debate in Europe vs America.
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    I have downvoted your comment because of "the media makes sure to shuffle it under the carpet". These cases are widely reported in national media. I wasn't familiar with the Finnish politician, but it's easy to find coverage of the case and related news on Finland's national broadcaster: https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426 https://yle.fi/a/74-20015426
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      Well I'm not talking about any Finnish politician. I'm talking about everyday people who get sentenced by the courts for blasphemy against Islam. These cases get local media coverage at most.
      - fundatus 2y ago
        Believe me, I think blasphemy laws should be abolished everywhere, but publicly burning Bibles/Qurans/whatever doesn't sounds like a "everyday people" activity to me.
        carlosjobim 2y ago
        This is a somewhat typical European response, even though you might not be European: always blame the victim. Everyday people are killing each other in trenches in the Ukraine as we speak. The cases I know where "everyday people" have been sentenced for blasphemy against Islam is when people have emotionally lashed out. One case where a gay man live streamed himself spitting at the Quran and cursing it after the Orlando nightclub massacre in the name of the Quran. It wasn't a real Quran, but the court said that it didn't matter. He might not be an "everyday person" to you. You might have acted more cool in such a situation. And there are a plethora of other cases where Europeans have been sentenced for publicly criticizing Islam, where no Quran burning has been involved. The situation in reality, beyond hacker ideology, is that European countries are prosecuting and sentencing people for blaspheming or criticizing Islam. And it usually is not activists who are targeted.

Shekelphile 2y ago

Speech in support of terrorist groups isn't protected in the US.

immibis 2y ago

It's the same way in Germany. I suppose the difference is that America claims to have free speech and Germany doesn't. Germany claims to have "freedom of opinion" (Meinungsfreiheit) though, which it clearly does not.