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Hundreds of qualified applicants were denied jobs through a "Biographical Assessment" that you can take yourself: https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographi

Hundreds of qualified applicants were denied jobs through a "Biographical Assessment" that you can take yourself: https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/ https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/ Spend a bit of time taking it and it's clear what at least one reason for this shortage is.

n1b0m 2y ago
It was dropped in 2018
- perihelions 2y ago
  Then it's topical for understanding the makeup of ATC controllers right now, isn't it? The impact of hiring decisions in 2018 would continue through their retirement age in the 2050's. We still talk about Reagan's mass-firing of ATC controllers, and that event was in *1981*. The impact is multi-generational and is still very visible.
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure what's more topical is Trump telling all ATC controllers to leave, immediately. Rather than a shitty test that was used for a few years and then phased out.
    - BowBun 2y ago
      This is disengenious. They received the same deferred resignation email that every other federal employee got. They weren't told to 'leave immediately' nor was anyone else, they were offered an option to leave or stay on for 9 months, with pay. I'm getting frustrated at 'my people' seemingly just making things up on this topic. Edit: Also linking another comment where ATC was literally told they're not in the offer... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42899944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42899944
      - 9283409232 2y ago
        They didn't make anything up. What they said is 100% accurate and lines up with what you said, you just have additional context they didn't have. Your fight should be with the reporting outlets because that is how they are reporting it.
        BowBun 2y ago
        > Trump telling all ATC controllers to leave, immediately this is not 100% accurate by any definition of the word accurate. It is an interpretation of a letter, and a wrong one in my opinion. Believe me I'm quite pissed at the media for finally making both sides of the US political spectrum equally uninterested in facts
      - fzeroracer 2y ago
        If I get an email from my superior telling me to either pledge loyalty or resign I'm going to read the very obvious writing on the wall here. You would have to be a massive idiot to not see it. And the ATC was told they're not included in the offer after the emails were already sent out. Like you trying to reframe it and add more context makes it more stupid, not less.
        BowBun 2y ago
        >pledge loyalty or resign This is made up. It's a layoff letter like we see at big corps any other week. "We're reorganizing, here's an offer, take it or not, your job might get cut in 9 months."
        yakz 2y ago
        Well, it's not made up. I think it's fair to interpret it that way. The word 'loyal' literally appears in the text. "Enhanced standards of conduct: The federal workforce should be comprised of employees who are reliable, loyal, trustworthy, and who strive for excellence in their daily work. Employees will be subject to enhanced standards of suitability and conduct as we move forward. Employees who engage in unlawful behavior or other misconduct will be prioritized for appropriate investigation and discipline, including termination."
  - ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
    Yes! How long does it take to go from a brand new applicant to an ATC controller that can successfully run ops in the DC airspace? What about that person's supervisor?
  - taeric 2y ago
    Not necessarily. In the reparations lawsuit, there are only 1000ish individuals. Assuming all of them would have qualified, you are talking about around 2% of the current workforce. Not nothing. But the last admin grew the workforce by more numbers. And did not have this policy. So, by all means, chase reparations. But don't think you've stumbled on the reason, either.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      What makes you think this wasn’t indicative of how the agency was run? The test was shut down because it was obvious and egregious: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-.... But the people who designed it didn’t resign.
      - taeric 2y ago
        What evidence have you that it was a present problem?
      - brookst 2y ago
        Innuendo is a weak argument. Show evidence for your claims; it is not sufficient to demand other people somehow prove your feelings are wrong.
        ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
        The evidence is shortages and safety incidents and that hiring scandal. Now we're able to use instinct and "innuendo" (as you call it) to find more rot
        yakz 2y ago
        But what evidence is there that the shortage was caused by those 'DEI' policies? For example, in 2013 the FAA Academy was shut down for most of the year (April - December) due to the sequester. They had planned to hire more than 1300 controllers that year but hired fewer than 600. Additionally, part of the changes that brought along the biographical questionnaire had another major change: they opened up positions to the general public--meaning a candidate didn't need to go through one of the college-affiliated programs anymore. However, that also meant that people had to find their way through the on-boarding process, which at least initially was not well developed and many candidates failed to complete the necessary steps to move the process along.
  - hwillis 2y ago
    It is a budget problem. https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttigieg-us-needs-air-traffic-controllers/ https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttig...
- tuatoru 2y ago
  The fact that it was done in the first place is widely known and would discourage many from even considering a career in ATC. The negative effects are still in play. The same for military recruitment.
  - ModernMech 2y ago
    Have you asked any? I mean has anyone literally told you this? Because people here in the field are saying what discourages others from applying is low pay and high stress. Yet you seem to think it’s an outdated hiring practice, so who told you that?
    - tuatoru 2y ago
      No, not directly. but I've been reading news items about how military recruitment is falling well short of goals, and how traditional pools from which recruits are drawn are now ignoring recruitment offers.
      - ModernMech 2y ago
        We also had 20 years of pointless wars that were started with lies and cost several trillion dollars. And we saw the people who fought in those wars were discarded into the gutter. They actually ruined a lot of lives. Maybe that has something to do with why recruitment is down. But no, you're probably right it's DEI.
rayiner 2y ago
It’s so much worse than I had assumed. Look at the question about how many “Art/Dance credit” hours you took in college. The scoring is completely random. The most points for 0, but then second most points for 7-12 hours, but 0 or 1 points between 1-6 or 13+. It looks clearly designed by the FAA basically to have “secret codes” that could be given to favored applicants through affiliated advocacy groups.
amluto 2y ago
And yet, this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense, just incompetence. I imagine this was the result of an inappropriate and inadvertently p-hacked analysis of a silly survey of existing employees, along with a large helping of unjustified assumptions. This is the kind of thing that might be, gradually, mitigated by improved high school math education. We don’t need more calculus to fix this, and we also don’t need more Pandas or R or “data science” or statistics-taught-the-way-it-usually-is. I think students could use a serious education in what data and statistics means, how to ask the right questions, and how to identify cases where the wrong question was answered, even if the answer came from fancy math. edit: I saw https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-... — wow, apparently a good amount of actual bad intentions may have been involved. Although the people in charge may well have thought that their bad intentions were good intentions. Sigh. One of the worst parts of the current anti-DEI madness is that its proponents are not entirely wrong.
- gruez 2y ago
  >And yet, this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense, just incompetence. ??? From the OP: "This assessment was implemented in large part due to a push for diversity among ATCs by the National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees (NBCFAE)." And from your link: "In 2012 and 2013, the NBCFAE continued pushing this process, with members meeting with the DOT, FAA, Congressional Black Caucus, and others to push diversity among ATCs. " I can't see how anyone would read those two sentences and conclude "this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense". Diversity, the D in DEI was specifically the reason why it was implemented.
talldayo 2y ago
Labor shortages don't exist. Every empty seat can be filled with attractive compensation until your unemployment rate hits zero. Labor competition has only one constraining factor, and it's name is money. The correlation of compensation to educated workers probably explains why the US government is staffed by morons that treat the economy like a teething ring.

n1b0m 2y ago

It was dropped in 2018

perihelions 2y ago
Then it's topical for understanding the makeup of ATC controllers right now, isn't it? The impact of hiring decisions in 2018 would continue through their retirement age in the 2050's. We still talk about Reagan's mass-firing of ATC controllers, and that event was in *1981*. The impact is multi-generational and is still very visible.
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure what's more topical is Trump telling all ATC controllers to leave, immediately. Rather than a shitty test that was used for a few years and then phased out.
  - BowBun 2y ago
    This is disengenious. They received the same deferred resignation email that every other federal employee got. They weren't told to 'leave immediately' nor was anyone else, they were offered an option to leave or stay on for 9 months, with pay. I'm getting frustrated at 'my people' seemingly just making things up on this topic. Edit: Also linking another comment where ATC was literally told they're not in the offer... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42899944 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42899944
    - 9283409232 2y ago
      They didn't make anything up. What they said is 100% accurate and lines up with what you said, you just have additional context they didn't have. Your fight should be with the reporting outlets because that is how they are reporting it.
      - BowBun 2y ago
        > Trump telling all ATC controllers to leave, immediately this is not 100% accurate by any definition of the word accurate. It is an interpretation of a letter, and a wrong one in my opinion. Believe me I'm quite pissed at the media for finally making both sides of the US political spectrum equally uninterested in facts
    - fzeroracer 2y ago
      If I get an email from my superior telling me to either pledge loyalty or resign I'm going to read the very obvious writing on the wall here. You would have to be a massive idiot to not see it. And the ATC was told they're not included in the offer after the emails were already sent out. Like you trying to reframe it and add more context makes it more stupid, not less.
      - BowBun 2y ago
        >pledge loyalty or resign This is made up. It's a layoff letter like we see at big corps any other week. "We're reorganizing, here's an offer, take it or not, your job might get cut in 9 months."
        yakz 2y ago
        Well, it's not made up. I think it's fair to interpret it that way. The word 'loyal' literally appears in the text. "Enhanced standards of conduct: The federal workforce should be comprised of employees who are reliable, loyal, trustworthy, and who strive for excellence in their daily work. Employees will be subject to enhanced standards of suitability and conduct as we move forward. Employees who engage in unlawful behavior or other misconduct will be prioritized for appropriate investigation and discipline, including termination."
- ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
  Yes! How long does it take to go from a brand new applicant to an ATC controller that can successfully run ops in the DC airspace? What about that person's supervisor?
- taeric 2y ago
  Not necessarily. In the reparations lawsuit, there are only 1000ish individuals. Assuming all of them would have qualified, you are talking about around 2% of the current workforce. Not nothing. But the last admin grew the workforce by more numbers. And did not have this policy. So, by all means, chase reparations. But don't think you've stumbled on the reason, either.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    What makes you think this wasn’t indicative of how the agency was run? The test was shut down because it was obvious and egregious: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-.... But the people who designed it didn’t resign.
    - taeric 2y ago
      What evidence have you that it was a present problem?
    - brookst 2y ago
      Innuendo is a weak argument. Show evidence for your claims; it is not sufficient to demand other people somehow prove your feelings are wrong.
      - ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
        The evidence is shortages and safety incidents and that hiring scandal. Now we're able to use instinct and "innuendo" (as you call it) to find more rot
        yakz 2y ago
        But what evidence is there that the shortage was caused by those 'DEI' policies? For example, in 2013 the FAA Academy was shut down for most of the year (April - December) due to the sequester. They had planned to hire more than 1300 controllers that year but hired fewer than 600. Additionally, part of the changes that brought along the biographical questionnaire had another major change: they opened up positions to the general public--meaning a candidate didn't need to go through one of the college-affiliated programs anymore. However, that also meant that people had to find their way through the on-boarding process, which at least initially was not well developed and many candidates failed to complete the necessary steps to move the process along.
- hwillis 2y ago
  It is a budget problem. https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttigieg-us-needs-air-traffic-controllers/ https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttig...
tuatoru 2y ago
The fact that it was done in the first place is widely known and would discourage many from even considering a career in ATC. The negative effects are still in play. The same for military recruitment.
- ModernMech 2y ago
  Have you asked any? I mean has anyone literally told you this? Because people here in the field are saying what discourages others from applying is low pay and high stress. Yet you seem to think it’s an outdated hiring practice, so who told you that?
  - tuatoru 2y ago
    No, not directly. but I've been reading news items about how military recruitment is falling well short of goals, and how traditional pools from which recruits are drawn are now ignoring recruitment offers.
    - ModernMech 2y ago
      We also had 20 years of pointless wars that were started with lies and cost several trillion dollars. And we saw the people who fought in those wars were discarded into the gutter. They actually ruined a lot of lives. Maybe that has something to do with why recruitment is down. But no, you're probably right it's DEI.

rayiner 2y ago

It’s so much worse than I had assumed. Look at the question about how many “Art/Dance credit” hours you took in college. The scoring is completely random. The most points for 0, but then second most points for 7-12 hours, but 0 or 1 points between 1-6 or 13+. It looks clearly designed by the FAA basically to have “secret codes” that could be given to favored applicants through affiliated advocacy groups.

amluto 2y ago

And yet, this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense, just incompetence. I imagine this was the result of an inappropriate and inadvertently p-hacked analysis of a silly survey of existing employees, along with a large helping of unjustified assumptions. This is the kind of thing that might be, gradually, mitigated by improved high school math education. We don’t need more calculus to fix this, and we also don’t need more Pandas or R or “data science” or statistics-taught-the-way-it-usually-is. I think students could use a serious education in what data and statistics means, how to ask the right questions, and how to identify cases where the wrong question was answered, even if the answer came from fancy math. edit: I saw https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-a-quick-overview https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-... — wow, apparently a good amount of actual bad intentions may have been involved. Although the people in charge may well have thought that their bad intentions were good intentions. Sigh. One of the worst parts of the current anti-DEI madness is that its proponents are not entirely wrong.

gruez 2y ago
>And yet, this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense, just incompetence. ??? From the OP: "This assessment was implemented in large part due to a push for diversity among ATCs by the National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees (NBCFAE)." And from your link: "In 2012 and 2013, the NBCFAE continued pushing this process, with members meeting with the DOT, FAA, Congressional Black Caucus, and others to push diversity among ATCs. " I can't see how anyone would read those two sentences and conclude "this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense". Diversity, the D in DEI was specifically the reason why it was implemented.

talldayo 2y ago

Labor shortages don't exist. Every empty seat can be filled with attractive compensation until your unemployment rate hits zero. Labor competition has only one constraining factor, and it's name is money. The correlation of compensation to educated workers probably explains why the US government is staffed by morons that treat the economy like a teething ring.