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I feel super fortunate to be a part of that generation where screwing around at home could lead directly to employment. I taught myself Atari BASIC on my 800 an

by ThomW 2y ago

I feel super fortunate to be a part of that generation where screwing around at home could lead directly to employment. I taught myself Atari BASIC on my 800 and took a 286 IBM compatible to college where I was a music major. I dropped out and landed working for an industrial automation company because I knew how to write dumb little programs. A couple years later I was the sole guy programming robots for them in a structured BASIC language.

dghlsakjg 2y ago
I’m not entirely sure we’re past those days. Up until the current hiring lull, it was very possible to get a programming position with just a self taught background. When the need for juniors comes back around, I’m sure we’ll start to see it again.
- musicale 2y ago
  I hope this is still true. There are certainly lots of opportunities for self-taught software and hardware development. And university lectures and course material (much of which is very good) that used to be locked inside physical campuses with expensive tuition fees are often freely available to anyone on the internet. You can definitely build a nice portfolio of open source software (and even hardware) on github. I would hope that is enough to get a job, but it might not be, especially in the current era of AI-fueled employment pressure.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > When the need for juniors comes back around, I’m sure we’ll start to see it again. Man, I'm skeptical, at least in the US. Since the pandemic, I've seen an absolute explosion in offshoring, which makes perfect sense when so many people are working remotely anyway. I've worked with lots of excellent engineers from Argentina to Poland and many places in between. It's tough for me to see how an American "tinkerer" will be able to find a job in that world if he wants an American-level salary. Also, I know the adage about "this time it's different" being the most dangerous phrase in language, but, at least in one example, something really is different. In the early 00s, after the dot com bust, there was a ton of fear about outsourcing the bulk of software work to India. That turned out not to happen, of course, because (a) remote meeting software was nowhere close to where it is today, (b) remote work in general wasn't common, and (c) the timezones issues between US and India were an absolute productivity killer. These days, though, everyone is used to remote work, and US companies have realized there are enough lower cost locales with plenty of timezone overlap to make offshoring the norm these days.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Juniors aren’t coming back, not with all this AI around.
globalnode 2y ago
the keys to employability have been captured by salesmen
chrismcb 2y ago
So... The current generation? Between mobile devices, raspberry pis, Web pages, Linux and even Windows there is plenty of stuff you can do just futzing and in your basement. Yeah it might be impossible to create your own AAA game, but you can still even create your own software. Plenty of open source opportunities out there as well
- raincole 2y ago
  I suppose the parent comment was referring the job market, not technology accessibility.
  - thrw42A8N 2y ago
    Don't ask for a million dollars per year and you'll have plenty of opportunities. There are tens of thousands of unfilled software jobs for higher than average wages.
    - iteria 2y ago
      But are they willing to even talk to someone who doesn't have a degree or experience? I've never worked at jobs that were super high paying. I've never seen a fresh self-taught person on a job in the last 5 years. And I've done consulting and gotten exposure to a lot a of different companies. I've also done scrappy startups. And boring small companies no one has ever heard of. Running into a self-taught person at all was rare, but when I did their story rarely involved not transferring from another career and leveraging some SME knowledge to get started. They already had training or a degree just not in this. I'm not sure screwing around at home will actually land you a job. Not anymore.
      - maccard 2y ago
        Yes. There are definitely places that won’t talk to you without a degree, but many, many places will take a degree or equivalent. > screwing around at home will actually land you a job. Not anymore I don’t think “screwing around” will land you a job whether it’s at home or at college/uni. But a degree tells me that you can stick by something for longer than a few months even when you don’t always feel like it by our own volition. Someone who has spent a year on and off learning to code hasn’t shown they can code or that they have any sort of consistency- both of which are (equally) as important as each other in a workplace. Someone with a degree in marine biology and a handful of GitHub projects and can pass a programming test? They’re probably my first choice. Someone with 3 years experience of writing code on their own? Absolutely. Show me those candidates and I’ll interview every one of them for a junior role.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
Same here. My first programming job was a "crossover" from a hardware technician job. It both got me into software, and introduced me to the title of "Engineer." (I was originally a Technician, then, an Electrical Engineer, even though I mostly did software, but in those days, I also designed the hardware the software ran on). I got my first Apple programming job, because I had a Mac Plus at home, and learned to program it in ASM and Pascal. I've only taken some non-matriculated math courses. All the rest was pretty much OJT and home study (and a lot of seminars and short classes). My original education was High School Dropout/GED.
xattt 2y ago
I’m a tech literati in a fairly tech illiterate field. My co-workers think I’m some sort of wizard when I show them basic Excel skills. Still waiting for my breakthrough.
- qup 2y ago
  I was a witness in court last week and it was said that I was a computer whiz for knowing how to play the mp4 file on the thumb drive. And then later that was used against me to accuse me of lying about not knowing how to check the voicemail on my landline.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rmbyrro 2y ago
pretty much my personal experience in a newer generation, just without the Atari, IBM, and basic a lot of employers actually like engineers who come from a personal hacking background more than traditional paths, because we're truly passionate and care deeply. we're not in for 8-5 and a paycheck.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  I am from "traditional background" but I do lots of programming in my free time, so I think it is fair to say I care deeply as well. Please tell me how to find such an employer.
acka 2y ago
Whenever I read replies like these, I feel jealous of people who dropped out of college yet still managed to land a job in tech. In my country, the Netherlands, it was almost impossible in the late 1980s to land a tech job other than a low-level service technician (read: roadie or cable guy) if you did not have at least a bachelor's degree or higher in a tech subject or a degree from a technical community college. College dropouts were turned away before even getting an interview, and bankers would rather commit suicide than finance tech startups founded by anyone without an appropriate college degree. Times sure have changed.
- bluedino 2y ago
  It still works both ways. I work for a very large company with no degree, doing HPC/AI I used to work for another very large company doing the same thing, but as a contractor. A FTE position opened on our team but I was told by HR that I wasn't qualified for the role (even though I had been doing it for a few years on the same team...) because I didn't have a degree (not a requirement for a contractor)
  - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
    Could you get your experience approved as equivalent to a degree, if there is such a thing - like the VAE in france. My brother had to get a degree with evening classes for the same reason but since he was already doing the work, it was fairly easy - assuming the cost of studying isn't prohibitive where you live. That said it is such BS. The whole contractor vs. FTE thing is. Where I work, FTEs get laid off before contingency staff is fired. What is the point of having contingency staff if they're more permanent than FTEs? Contractors who do the work for years can't get interviews because they're overqualified for the FTE position they apply for but the same hiring managers are happy to string them along doing the same work they're overqualified for, on the same team but as a contractor with less pay and none of the benefits. I understand contractors applying to a junior role to even get a foot in the door when it is the only FTE role that opened for over a year... But you'd have better odds landing an FTE role straight out of graduating from college than with a track record of doing the work well for years as a contractor. And they're "cool" so they let contractors attend a bunch of FTE meetings which has the primary effect of rubbing in all the great diversity and inclusion initiatives they are excluded from due to their second class citizen status. At some point those companies don't deserve to have you. But even if you get paid half what the FTEs make, it's still a guilded cage with a 6 figures salary so it's hard to just give it the finger and move on.

by ThomW 2y ago

dghlsakjg 2y ago

I’m not entirely sure we’re past those days. Up until the current hiring lull, it was very possible to get a programming position with just a self taught background. When the need for juniors comes back around, I’m sure we’ll start to see it again.

musicale 2y ago
I hope this is still true. There are certainly lots of opportunities for self-taught software and hardware development. And university lectures and course material (much of which is very good) that used to be locked inside physical campuses with expensive tuition fees are often freely available to anyone on the internet. You can definitely build a nice portfolio of open source software (and even hardware) on github. I would hope that is enough to get a job, but it might not be, especially in the current era of AI-fueled employment pressure.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> When the need for juniors comes back around, I’m sure we’ll start to see it again. Man, I'm skeptical, at least in the US. Since the pandemic, I've seen an absolute explosion in offshoring, which makes perfect sense when so many people are working remotely anyway. I've worked with lots of excellent engineers from Argentina to Poland and many places in between. It's tough for me to see how an American "tinkerer" will be able to find a job in that world if he wants an American-level salary. Also, I know the adage about "this time it's different" being the most dangerous phrase in language, but, at least in one example, something really is different. In the early 00s, after the dot com bust, there was a ton of fear about outsourcing the bulk of software work to India. That turned out not to happen, of course, because (a) remote meeting software was nowhere close to where it is today, (b) remote work in general wasn't common, and (c) the timezones issues between US and India were an absolute productivity killer. These days, though, everyone is used to remote work, and US companies have realized there are enough lower cost locales with plenty of timezone overlap to make offshoring the norm these days.
dyauspitr 2y ago
Juniors aren’t coming back, not with all this AI around.

globalnode 2y ago

the keys to employability have been captured by salesmen

chrismcb 2y ago

So... The current generation? Between mobile devices, raspberry pis, Web pages, Linux and even Windows there is plenty of stuff you can do just futzing and in your basement. Yeah it might be impossible to create your own AAA game, but you can still even create your own software. Plenty of open source opportunities out there as well

raincole 2y ago
I suppose the parent comment was referring the job market, not technology accessibility.
- thrw42A8N 2y ago
  Don't ask for a million dollars per year and you'll have plenty of opportunities. There are tens of thousands of unfilled software jobs for higher than average wages.
  - iteria 2y ago
    But are they willing to even talk to someone who doesn't have a degree or experience? I've never worked at jobs that were super high paying. I've never seen a fresh self-taught person on a job in the last 5 years. And I've done consulting and gotten exposure to a lot a of different companies. I've also done scrappy startups. And boring small companies no one has ever heard of. Running into a self-taught person at all was rare, but when I did their story rarely involved not transferring from another career and leveraging some SME knowledge to get started. They already had training or a degree just not in this. I'm not sure screwing around at home will actually land you a job. Not anymore.
    - maccard 2y ago
      Yes. There are definitely places that won’t talk to you without a degree, but many, many places will take a degree or equivalent. > screwing around at home will actually land you a job. Not anymore I don’t think “screwing around” will land you a job whether it’s at home or at college/uni. But a degree tells me that you can stick by something for longer than a few months even when you don’t always feel like it by our own volition. Someone who has spent a year on and off learning to code hasn’t shown they can code or that they have any sort of consistency- both of which are (equally) as important as each other in a workplace. Someone with a degree in marine biology and a handful of GitHub projects and can pass a programming test? They’re probably my first choice. Someone with 3 years experience of writing code on their own? Absolutely. Show me those candidates and I’ll interview every one of them for a junior role.

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

Same here. My first programming job was a "crossover" from a hardware technician job. It both got me into software, and introduced me to the title of "Engineer." (I was originally a Technician, then, an Electrical Engineer, even though I mostly did software, but in those days, I also designed the hardware the software ran on). I got my first Apple programming job, because I had a Mac Plus at home, and learned to program it in ASM and Pascal. I've only taken some non-matriculated math courses. All the rest was pretty much OJT and home study (and a lot of seminars and short classes). My original education was High School Dropout/GED.

xattt 2y ago

I’m a tech literati in a fairly tech illiterate field. My co-workers think I’m some sort of wizard when I show them basic Excel skills. Still waiting for my breakthrough.

qup 2y ago
I was a witness in court last week and it was said that I was a computer whiz for knowing how to play the mp4 file on the thumb drive. And then later that was used against me to accuse me of lying about not knowing how to check the voicemail on my landline.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rmbyrro 2y ago

pretty much my personal experience in a newer generation, just without the Atari, IBM, and basic a lot of employers actually like engineers who come from a personal hacking background more than traditional paths, because we're truly passionate and care deeply. we're not in for 8-5 and a paycheck.

zelphirkalt 2y ago
I am from "traditional background" but I do lots of programming in my free time, so I think it is fair to say I care deeply as well. Please tell me how to find such an employer.

acka 2y ago

Whenever I read replies like these, I feel jealous of people who dropped out of college yet still managed to land a job in tech. In my country, the Netherlands, it was almost impossible in the late 1980s to land a tech job other than a low-level service technician (read: roadie or cable guy) if you did not have at least a bachelor's degree or higher in a tech subject or a degree from a technical community college. College dropouts were turned away before even getting an interview, and bankers would rather commit suicide than finance tech startups founded by anyone without an appropriate college degree. Times sure have changed.

bluedino 2y ago
It still works both ways. I work for a very large company with no degree, doing HPC/AI I used to work for another very large company doing the same thing, but as a contractor. A FTE position opened on our team but I was told by HR that I wasn't qualified for the role (even though I had been doing it for a few years on the same team...) because I didn't have a degree (not a requirement for a contractor)
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
  Could you get your experience approved as equivalent to a degree, if there is such a thing - like the VAE in france. My brother had to get a degree with evening classes for the same reason but since he was already doing the work, it was fairly easy - assuming the cost of studying isn't prohibitive where you live. That said it is such BS. The whole contractor vs. FTE thing is. Where I work, FTEs get laid off before contingency staff is fired. What is the point of having contingency staff if they're more permanent than FTEs? Contractors who do the work for years can't get interviews because they're overqualified for the FTE position they apply for but the same hiring managers are happy to string them along doing the same work they're overqualified for, on the same team but as a contractor with less pay and none of the benefits. I understand contractors applying to a junior role to even get a foot in the door when it is the only FTE role that opened for over a year... But you'd have better odds landing an FTE role straight out of graduating from college than with a track record of doing the work well for years as a contractor. And they're "cool" so they let contractors attend a bunch of FTE meetings which has the primary effect of rubbing in all the great diversity and inclusion initiatives they are excluded from due to their second class citizen status. At some point those companies don't deserve to have you. But even if you get paid half what the FTEs make, it's still a guilded cage with a 6 figures salary so it's hard to just give it the finger and move on.