6 ms·

Mistakes from building a model to scalp concert tickets

52 points by racketracer 2y ago

Arainach 2y ago
I'm surprised "entering a business where you know customers hate you and where any of your friends who you explain your job to will hate you" wasn't on the list.
- brianwawok 2y ago
  It’s business!
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Rule of Acquisition 21: "Never place friendship above profit."
- JojoFatsani 2y ago
  [flagged]
aworks 2y ago
I had no idea scalping was so complicated.
asdasdsddd 2y ago
> Artists pretend their tickets are affordable, Ticketmaster pretends they're fighting scalpers while giving kickbacks to artists, and fans pretend they won't pay whatever it takes to get in. this is very well put
- FactKnower69 2y ago
  >fans pretend they won't pay whatever it takes to get in. Uh, no, I've abandoned multiple carts after seeing the final ticket price with hidden fees is 175% the advertised price. Those shows didn't end up selling out, either, they just left revenue sitting on the table. Entire live entertainment industry would be double digit % larger if the ticketing experience wasn't uniquely dogshit
  - grujicd 2y ago
    Never seen it in Europe, visited concerts in dozen countries. There are some platform fees, but let's say 5% or at most 10%.
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      ‘Murica!
    - reaperducer 2y ago
      Apparently 20% in the U.K.: https://www.which.co.uk/policy-and-insight/article/which-calls-for-crackdown-on-sneaky-gig-ticket-fees-as-new-laws-set-to-come-into-force-aG6rH3K3gMWg https://www.which.co.uk/policy-and-insight/article/which-cal... Also a problem down under: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-16/dynamic-pricing-hidden-fees-government-ban-four-corners/104477926 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-16/dynamic-pricing-hidde...
      - graemep 2y ago
        The UK article (from March this year) says the law was about to change to require clearer pricing
      - grujicd 2y ago
        Sadly, didn't visit any concert in UK, so couldn't include that datapoint in my anecdote.
    - hnburnsy 2y ago
      That is why it was cheaper to buy a flight, hotel, and ticket to see Taylor Swift in Paris than to buy tickets to any show in the US.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        It's generally like that for any vacation really: if you're an American, it's probably cheaper to book a flight and go to Europe for 2 weeks than to spend that time in America, unless you just spend your vacation time sitting at home. Hotels and restaurants are all absurdly overpriced in America these days, compared to Europe, so unless your vacation time is extremely short, the flight cost will be more than compensated for after a few days.
- latchkey 2y ago
  don't forget the venue is likely also owned by ticketmaster and is all part of the game too.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  This fan broke the concert habit about 10 years ago when it really started getting out of hand; I’ve only been to local, relatively small venues since. $80-100 is my cutoff.
Liquix 2y ago
scalping at scale is objectively evil. the scalper's bread and butter is exploiting the buyer's noble desire to support their favorite artist, make memories with friends, meet strangers, or have a transformative experience -- all for the sole purpose of financial profit. people will never stop wanting these things, so scalpers will never stop making money. it's just a deeply gross thing to do
- chrismcb 2y ago
  Why is it objectively evil? Is it because the consumer pays more? Is it because the artist and venue don't make as much as they could? I didn't like scaling, but I don't consider it evil.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  If you sell a ticket with no ability to transfer it, this stops scalpers. Certainly, it destroys secondary value of access to the event, but there are always tradeoffs. Edit: @margalabargala Great idea.
  - Writingdorky 2y ago
    [dead]
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    There are ways to address that easily. Imagine, after a show is sold out, the ticket seller creates a waiting list. As long as the waiting list is longer than 0, anyone who purchased a ticket and no longer wants it can get a full refund. Now you have tickets which are not transferrable but without removing the ability for people to access the event.
    - neilv 2y ago
      How about partial refund? (For example: 90% refund when the event is a week away, 66% up to 3 days away, 33% up to 24 hours away, 20% up to 3 hours away.)
gwbas1c 2y ago
> Those $100 face-value tickets were selling for 10 to 50x their price on secondary markets. Either she truly believed her tickets were only worth $100 (unlikely), or she was deliberately underpricing to maintain her image as an artist who cares about fan access. No, those $100 tickets are mostly worth $100. There are a lot of reasons why someone will overpay to get a ticket; but don't delude yourself: If Taylor Swift decided to charge $1000 for each ticket, many less people would go. She might sell 1/10th of the tickets, and it would be a wash, she might sell 1/3rd of the tickets, and make more money, or she might sell 1/20th of the tickets, and make less money. What drives the price of the tickets up is scarcity: Once the venue is sold out (or close to sold out,) it's useful to only sell the tickets to people who really, really want to pay. Edit: I should add that, unless I really want to see an artist, I tend to buy my tickets shortly before the show, and only if they are a reasonable price. For example, last summer Green Day & Smashing Pumpkins was $200 / ticket. I kinda wanted to go, but I didn't want to pay that much. In contrast, Weezer was $70 a ticket and playing around the corner from my office. I went to Weezer. (And wished I bought a floor ticket sooner because the Flaming Lips were the opening band.) Had Weezer charged $200, I never would have gone.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- grujicd 2y ago
  There are reasons to prefer full avenue instead of half full, even if second one brings more money for this single event: - artist might prefer the full-avenue energy - it produces positive hype (it's often newsworthy when show is sold out) - you can sometimes add new dates in the same avenue, maximising profits since lot of stage, travel, staff, marketing costs don't increase if you have another concert the next day. - You grow fan base instead of shrinking it. It's better to have twice the number of satisfied fans when you revisited the city in few years. But it can also increase future album sales, streaming revenue, etc.
- ChadNauseam 2y ago
  > > Those $100 face-value tickets were selling for 10 to 50x their price on secondary markets. Either she truly believed her tickets were only worth $100 (unlikely), or she was deliberately underpricing to maintain her image as an artist who cares about fan access. > No, those $100 tickets are mostly worth $100. No, all of those tickets were worth more than $100, which you see from the fact that, if you had one, you could sell it for more than $100.
ClassyJacket 2y ago
The more scalpers suffer, the better. May they suffer infinite pain.
stevage 2y ago
Such a great read. It'd be fascinating to know more about the secret relationships between artists and scalpers.
hnburnsy 2y ago
Sorry for the off topic, but the first image in the linked article has a crazy long and surprisingly descriptive alt and title tag. Is this some weird\new SEO practice? >alt="A wide image divided into two contrasting halves by a large barrier. On the left, a group of young fan girls, wearing pop star t-shirts and accessories, stand outside the stadium with dejected expressions, some leaning against the barrier while others look desperately toward the stadium. On the right, inside the stadium, an enthusiastic crowd dances and cheers under colorful lights. At the center of the stage, a blonde female singer-songwriter in a sparkling outfit performs energetically, holding a microphone as the audience celebrates the moment. In between the fan girls and the concert crowd, ticket scalpers aggressively wave tickets and cash, some holding signs with inflated prices, greedily capitalizing on the situation. The contrast between the fans' frustration and the joyful concert scene emphasizes the emotional divide."
- snug 2y ago
  Probably just the prompt they used to create the image, since people always ask
TYPE_FASTER 2y ago
Ticketmaster now offers both dynamic pricing, as a response to the complaints that artists don’t get a cut of the price of scalped tickets, and Verified Fan pre-sales as a response to fan clubs. I kinda gave up on it all, and go to see shows at a small venue near me. I can buy tickets in person and skip the BS most of the time. I won’t see big acts but these days that’s not what I’m into anyways.

52 points by racketracer 2y ago

I'm surprised "entering a business where you know customers hate you and where any of your friends who you explain your job to will hate you" wasn't on the list.

brianwawok 2y ago
It’s business!
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Rule of Acquisition 21: "Never place friendship above profit."
JojoFatsani 2y ago
[flagged]

aworks 2y ago

I had no idea scalping was so complicated.

asdasdsddd 2y ago

> Artists pretend their tickets are affordable, Ticketmaster pretends they're fighting scalpers while giving kickbacks to artists, and fans pretend they won't pay whatever it takes to get in. this is very well put

FactKnower69 2y ago
>fans pretend they won't pay whatever it takes to get in. Uh, no, I've abandoned multiple carts after seeing the final ticket price with hidden fees is 175% the advertised price. Those shows didn't end up selling out, either, they just left revenue sitting on the table. Entire live entertainment industry would be double digit % larger if the ticketing experience wasn't uniquely dogshit
- grujicd 2y ago
  Never seen it in Europe, visited concerts in dozen countries. There are some platform fees, but let's say 5% or at most 10%.
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    ‘Murica!
  - reaperducer 2y ago
    Apparently 20% in the U.K.: https://www.which.co.uk/policy-and-insight/article/which-calls-for-crackdown-on-sneaky-gig-ticket-fees-as-new-laws-set-to-come-into-force-aG6rH3K3gMWg https://www.which.co.uk/policy-and-insight/article/which-cal... Also a problem down under: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-16/dynamic-pricing-hidden-fees-government-ban-four-corners/104477926 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-16/dynamic-pricing-hidde...
    - graemep 2y ago
      The UK article (from March this year) says the law was about to change to require clearer pricing
    - grujicd 2y ago
      Sadly, didn't visit any concert in UK, so couldn't include that datapoint in my anecdote.
  - hnburnsy 2y ago
    That is why it was cheaper to buy a flight, hotel, and ticket to see Taylor Swift in Paris than to buy tickets to any show in the US.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      It's generally like that for any vacation really: if you're an American, it's probably cheaper to book a flight and go to Europe for 2 weeks than to spend that time in America, unless you just spend your vacation time sitting at home. Hotels and restaurants are all absurdly overpriced in America these days, compared to Europe, so unless your vacation time is extremely short, the flight cost will be more than compensated for after a few days.
latchkey 2y ago
don't forget the venue is likely also owned by ticketmaster and is all part of the game too.
EasyMark 2y ago
This fan broke the concert habit about 10 years ago when it really started getting out of hand; I’ve only been to local, relatively small venues since. $80-100 is my cutoff.

Liquix 2y ago

scalping at scale is objectively evil. the scalper's bread and butter is exploiting the buyer's noble desire to support their favorite artist, make memories with friends, meet strangers, or have a transformative experience -- all for the sole purpose of financial profit. people will never stop wanting these things, so scalpers will never stop making money. it's just a deeply gross thing to do

chrismcb 2y ago
Why is it objectively evil? Is it because the consumer pays more? Is it because the artist and venue don't make as much as they could? I didn't like scaling, but I don't consider it evil.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
If you sell a ticket with no ability to transfer it, this stops scalpers. Certainly, it destroys secondary value of access to the event, but there are always tradeoffs. Edit: @margalabargala Great idea.
- Writingdorky 2y ago
  [dead]
- margalabargala 2y ago
  There are ways to address that easily. Imagine, after a show is sold out, the ticket seller creates a waiting list. As long as the waiting list is longer than 0, anyone who purchased a ticket and no longer wants it can get a full refund. Now you have tickets which are not transferrable but without removing the ability for people to access the event.
  - neilv 2y ago
    How about partial refund? (For example: 90% refund when the event is a week away, 66% up to 3 days away, 33% up to 24 hours away, 20% up to 3 hours away.)

gwbas1c 2y ago

> Those $100 face-value tickets were selling for 10 to 50x their price on secondary markets. Either she truly believed her tickets were only worth $100 (unlikely), or she was deliberately underpricing to maintain her image as an artist who cares about fan access. No, those $100 tickets are mostly worth $100. There are a lot of reasons why someone will overpay to get a ticket; but don't delude yourself: If Taylor Swift decided to charge $1000 for each ticket, many less people would go. She might sell 1/10th of the tickets, and it would be a wash, she might sell 1/3rd of the tickets, and make more money, or she might sell 1/20th of the tickets, and make less money. What drives the price of the tickets up is scarcity: Once the venue is sold out (or close to sold out,) it's useful to only sell the tickets to people who really, really want to pay. Edit: I should add that, unless I really want to see an artist, I tend to buy my tickets shortly before the show, and only if they are a reasonable price. For example, last summer Green Day & Smashing Pumpkins was $200 / ticket. I kinda wanted to go, but I didn't want to pay that much. In contrast, Weezer was $70 a ticket and playing around the corner from my office. I went to Weezer. (And wished I bought a floor ticket sooner because the Flaming Lips were the opening band.) Had Weezer charged $200, I never would have gone.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
grujicd 2y ago
There are reasons to prefer full avenue instead of half full, even if second one brings more money for this single event: - artist might prefer the full-avenue energy - it produces positive hype (it's often newsworthy when show is sold out) - you can sometimes add new dates in the same avenue, maximising profits since lot of stage, travel, staff, marketing costs don't increase if you have another concert the next day. - You grow fan base instead of shrinking it. It's better to have twice the number of satisfied fans when you revisited the city in few years. But it can also increase future album sales, streaming revenue, etc.
ChadNauseam 2y ago
> > Those $100 face-value tickets were selling for 10 to 50x their price on secondary markets. Either she truly believed her tickets were only worth $100 (unlikely), or she was deliberately underpricing to maintain her image as an artist who cares about fan access. > No, those $100 tickets are mostly worth $100. No, all of those tickets were worth more than $100, which you see from the fact that, if you had one, you could sell it for more than $100.

ClassyJacket 2y ago

The more scalpers suffer, the better. May they suffer infinite pain.

stevage 2y ago

Such a great read. It'd be fascinating to know more about the secret relationships between artists and scalpers.

hnburnsy 2y ago

Sorry for the off topic, but the first image in the linked article has a crazy long and surprisingly descriptive alt and title tag. Is this some weird\new SEO practice? >alt="A wide image divided into two contrasting halves by a large barrier. On the left, a group of young fan girls, wearing pop star t-shirts and accessories, stand outside the stadium with dejected expressions, some leaning against the barrier while others look desperately toward the stadium. On the right, inside the stadium, an enthusiastic crowd dances and cheers under colorful lights. At the center of the stage, a blonde female singer-songwriter in a sparkling outfit performs energetically, holding a microphone as the audience celebrates the moment. In between the fan girls and the concert crowd, ticket scalpers aggressively wave tickets and cash, some holding signs with inflated prices, greedily capitalizing on the situation. The contrast between the fans' frustration and the joyful concert scene emphasizes the emotional divide."

snug 2y ago
Probably just the prompt they used to create the image, since people always ask

TYPE_FASTER 2y ago

Ticketmaster now offers both dynamic pricing, as a response to the complaints that artists don’t get a cut of the price of scalped tickets, and Verified Fan pre-sales as a response to fan clubs. I kinda gave up on it all, and go to see shows at a small venue near me. I can buy tickets in person and skip the BS most of the time. I won’t see big acts but these days that’s not what I’m into anyways.